The following is an archive of the discussion regarding part one of the Unity series. As I strongly believe that these discussions on this series are just as vital as the articles, I’ll be archiving each one with the rest of the series. I hope you find this helpful. Some edits were made to assist in readability and grammar. Thanks to everyone who took part in this.

Redsavior: This is going to be a touchy subject. I'm all ready for some fighting. I suspect the next part will spark some.

Full.o.Joy: I can't believe that I'm the first one to respond to this.

Well, you know Dave that we ARE one in Christ. We are ALL "hid with Christ in God" according to Colossians. We are all co-heirs with Christ. One body. That is pretty unified. So spiritually we are one (because a house divided against itself cannot stand), but how we operate and what our goals are is a different story.

I used to want to "be cool" and " be accepted" by the ravers. I wanted to prove that Jesus freaks can rave too. But I guess I am getting old, because now I could care less. I believe that when I spin at a show or throw one myself, if I just go and sincerely worship God (Not trying to be too spiritual, but not hiding who I am) through music and dancing, then I believe God will bless that and people will be attracted to it. They will be drawn through me loving Jesus. Does everyone feel this way? No. Is that ok? Yes.

I would hope that all of us have a common goal and that is to lead people to Christ and see them get saved. How we get there is through many different means by many different roads. But as long as we end up the same place, we are unified.

Now, I know some are believers who don't think about leading their fellow club goers/ravers to the Lord. That is ok too. They might just be believers who go to parties. They don't feel lead to tell those people about Jesus. Maybe they tell the guy at the library about Jesus. There was a time when I just wanted to throw a party to have fun and that was ok. I guess I am at the place in my life where I don't have much time to do alot (with a real job, wife, 4 kids, etc), so I want everything that I do have time to do to glorify God in the utmost way. But that is just me. And I hope that I can accept and encourage those who think differently.

I have found out over the past 10 years, through the parties I have thrown and participated in, that the parties where I was most obvious about worshipping Jesus were the parties that were the best and bore the most fruit. But that doesn't mean that I expect everyone to do it that way. So in that aspect I feel that I am in unity with the rest of our scene.

Redsavior: “Well, you know Dave that we ARE one in Christ. We are ALL "hid with Christ in God" according to Colossians. We are all co-heirs with Christ. One body. That is pretty unified. So spiritually we are one (because a house divided against itself cannot stand), but how we operate and what our goals are is a different story.”

Remember, don't jump to far ahead here. That was just the first part of the series. My main point this time around is that we can all be part of one body and still be disorganized and fall flat on our faces. Christ is the head, but we still need to listen to him or the body won't work right.

“I used to want to "be cool" and " be accepted" by the ravers. I wanted to prove that Jesus freaks can rave too. But I guess I am getting old, because now I could care less. I believe that when I spin at a show or throw one myself, if I just go and sincerely worship God (Not trying to be too spiritual, but not hiding who I am) through music and dancing, then I believe God will bless that and people will be attracted to it. They will be drawn through me loving Jesus. Does everyone feel this way? No. Is that ok? Yes.”

I'm not even saying that we should abandon this approach. That's part of the next article when I look at the history of how the scene developed and "oozed" over time.

“I would hope that all of us have a common goal and that is to lead people to Christ and see them get saved. How we get there is through many different means by many different roads. But as long as we end up the same place, we are unified.”

And a common goal is partially the point here. Without some common goals and "strong" leadership we won't get to the same place.

“Now, I know some are believers who don't think about leading their fellow club goers/ravers to the Lord. That is ok too. They might just be believers who go to parties. They don't feel lead to tell those people about Jesus. Maybe they tell the guy at the library about Jesus. There was a time when I just wanted to throw a party to have fun and that was ok. I guess I am at the place in my life where I don't have much time to do alot (with a real job, wife, 4 kids, etc), so I want everything that I do have time to do to glorify God in the utmost way. But that is just me. And I hope that I can accept and encourage those who think differently.”

Again, you're assuming the direction I'm headed. Believe me, there is a place for just having fun. The real question is where are we going as a scene. The individual level will always be somewhat different than the group goals and that's fine. The Joint Chiefs of Staff have one set of goals while the private has another.

“I have found out over the past 10 years, through the parties I have thrown and participated in, that the parties where I was most obvious about worshipping Jesus were the parties that were the best and bore the most fruit. But that doesn't mean that I expect everyone to do it that way. So in that aspect I feel that I am in unity with the rest of our scene.”

Amen, but I still think that saying you're ok with others simply doing their own thing is the same thing as having a united scene or a functioning body. You brain gets concerned when your heart isn't doing as well as it used to right? Is your heart out of union then? Is your body functioning like it should then?

Brandon: Hmmm, I'm trying to figure out where you're going with this.

I've got a lot to say on the subject but I suppose I should hold my tongue until I see the other pieces in the series.  There are definitely periods in the scene's history when 'unity' was more prevalent than it was now.

If there's anything to 'disagree' about in your article I suppose it would be your definition of unity.  In the absence of a definition of what the 'scene' is and who it is composed of, it sounds like what you're saying is unity = follow the leaders.  But which leaders?  A scene is not a church, and our history has shown that the scene is far too decentralized for some sort of top-down hierarchy to be fitted over it.  What decision-making mechanisms exist for determining 'goals?'  Who takes part in the conversation?

I agree with the concept of unity as working together and achieving common goals, and obviously the 'one body' thing is important, but as far as a capital G goal for the scene, I don't know, I think there's more than one. 

Anyways, I'll rein myself in and see what comes next.

Redsavior: “I've got a lot to say on the subject but I suppose I should hold my tongue until I see the other pieces in the series.  There are definitely periods in the scene's history when 'unity' was more prevalent than it was now.”

I totally agree.

“If there's anything to 'disagree' about in your article I suppose it would be your definition of unity.  In the absence of a definition of what the 'scene' is and who it is composed of, it sounds like what you're saying is unity = follow the leaders.  But which leaders?  A scene is not a church, and our history has shown that the scene is far too decentralized for some sort of top-down hierarchy to be fitted over it.  What decision-making mechanisms exist for determining 'goals?'  Who takes part in the conversation?”

Those are ALL things we need to discuss. The series is to help us actually HAVE that discussion.

“I agree with the concept of unity as working together and achieving common goals, and obviously the 'one body' thing is important, but as far as a capital G goal for the scene, I don't know, I think there's more than one.”

Of course there is more than one goal. Every business has several goals. We just have never defined what those goals are.

Dmitri Vaganov: I want to answer Dave's questions to see if it helps:

Q: Who do you think are some of the current leaders in our scene today?
A: Don't know.
Q: Are these the same leaders or have they changed over time?
A: I am new.
Q: Do these leaders seem to be listening to God’s leading or their own?
A: Who are they?
Q: Are you listening for direction from God and the leaders of the scene or are you searching yourself out?
A: I am trying to do what I think will work to save souls.
Q: Where do you think this scene is heading at the moment?
A: From what I understand the emphasis is to cross over, get exposure in the secular scene.
Q: Is it where God wants it to be?
A: I believe God wants us to save souls. Are we?
Q: What is keeping us from reaching it if we are falling short?
A: Are we falling short?
Q: Are we moving as one body or many?
A: We are moving as many parts of one body.

Full.o.Joy: I would have to say that the most unified group of people would have been early "found". I would have parties at the Harbor in Mt. Vernon and people from found would come from Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Kentucky, and Tennessee. There was mad support for everyone. When we had the first Found NYE gathering in Upper Peninsula Michigan people came from as far as California and Florida. There was never a question that we would go to support our brothers and sisters. And the people that came ALWAYS had unbelieving friends that they brought. We were allowed to be as real as possible and many people were influenced for the Lord. It was perfect.

Everyone talked constantly about what to do artistically and in ministry. It was a very focused group. N8 from D.C., Carrie Hunter, Hillary and John Stark and Michelle from LA (Galactic Girl) were the leaders (so to speak). Not because they forced themselves on us, but because they were willing to step out and DO SOMETHING and we happily followed. When I first heard about them and wrote to one of them Michelle sent me a package with a letter, flyers, stickers and a mix tape from someone. They sent it to me while I was a counselor at a summer camp. That meant SO MUCH to me at the time. That is leadership!

Unfortunately, when the "Found Tour" came around there were a lot of different ideas about how the tour should be run. There were some that wanted more Jesus, some wanted less, some liked to drink, others thought it was a bad image, etc. I think that came down to a lack of maturity amongst us. There were no true "leaders" in the group to help us to get on the same page. We were all young in the Lord and there wasn't a spiritual leader (pastor, teacher, evangelist) that we were all willing to listen to. I think we were all trying to get away from the "organized" church and their ways and that hurt us in the end.

Redsavior: And that is just one example of WHY I'm writing this article. The same thing that killed Found pretty much killed Amplified Life in some respects. It's also why after Scott left N*Soul there was a void for a long time. Our leadership is pretty much non-existent and many of us are still running from the organized church or even the THOUGHT of a faith based organization or group of being organized. It's EXACTLY what i mean by our legs are going in different directions.

Dmitri, You said we were moving as many parts of one body, but are we moving together or are many of us working against each other in trying to do what we think we need to do?

Dmitri Vaganov: I don't see anybody working against each other, but I see people moving in different directions. I also don't see everybody having the same goal.

Redsavior: There are some who are working against each other, but they don't see that they are. Since you are still somewhat new, I don't really expect you to see it. I especially don't since I don't think the people who are see it for themselves. I think it's that we're so absorbed with what we are doing individually that nobody is stepping back and looking at the larger picture. We still have people coming to this site asking when are we going to make a splash in the secular scene.

Brandon: I'd echo most of full.o.joy's sentiments - from late 97 to late 99 was a time of real unity.  As for the found tour, another way to put it could be: there were leaders, but people stopped listening to them. 

Full.o.Joy: Unfortunately, there was also a wolf amongst the sheep: A young man by the name of Louis. I had known him from the secular scene. He lived with my friend Scott and I for a while. He got all "religious" so he could go on tour. When some of the FoundKids discovered that Louis had been dealing e and various sorts of things they asked him to leave. He then proceded to bad mouth the FoundKids and sow seeds of discord amongst them. Also, Louis knew ALOT of kids in the scene, so he sent out the word about found. He said they were trying to tell everybody not to do drugs while the whole time they were drinking. He painted them as the ultimate hypocrites. They invited him along without knowing a thing about him. That was spiritually immature in my opinion. If you are going to go on tour and invade cities for Christ you better know who you are and what you are doing or the enemy will eat you alive.

Brandon: Fair enough...kind of ironic given that one of Found's guiding principles was "Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves" (Matt 10:16)

Redsavior: It still comes back to unity and leadership issues. At least it does in my book. That is an unfortunate story though... kinda like N*Soul's if you think about it.

Dj Du Nord: Good article. I'm not familiar with the argument but I've seen others on the site. I hope this discussion bears fruit and keeps us on track in a common goal.
Dave for President?

Redsavior: A lot of it has been behind the scenes I guess. Start looking for it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hazey (Pavel): How to Be Inviting Through Body Language.

“Body language is one of the psychological discoveries (or fads) of our day. (Like others of its kind, my guess is that it is about ten percent discovery and ninety percent fad.) Proponents of body language claim that, subconsciously, in our conversation with other people, our physical postures are more expressive of our true feelings and communicate on a much deeper level than the words we speak. For example, if, when speaking to someone, I stand with my arms folded, I am actually indicating that I want to hold myself in. I am saying that I basically do not trust the other person enough to open out to him.

”Body language analysts claim to be able to read a whole glossary of such signals, and thus to be able to tell a great deal about what really is going on between people in conversation. Although we may have here a grain of truth swimming in a bucket of hogwash, body language can provide a means for getting at something very important regarding evangelism.

The body whose language is evangelism is, of course, the one Paul calls "the body of Christ." And this immediately points us toward a root distinction to which we will return a bit later, namely, that rather than being a delegated responsibility, evangelism is a function of the church itself, of the faith community as community, of the body as body. [more]”

DJ Dual Core: “Our leadership is pretty much non-existent and many of us are still running from the organized church or even the THOUGHT of a faith based organization or group of being organized. It's EXACTLY what I mean by our legs are going in different directions.”

Although I a involved in the organized Church I have to say that I am pretty leery when it comes to the idea of getting involved in any kind of formal organization related to Christian music.  Unless I become a Republican and adopt the position that music is primarily for worship and evangelism I'm not going to fit into any Christian music organization that's connected to the existing CCM industry.  I think that is true of a lot of other people as well. 

Ideological and philosophical differences that SHOULDN'T preclude Christians from working together do.  It's easier to deal with non-Christians who don't get your faith than to deal with other Christians who don't get your faith, especially when those other Christians are The Leaders.  Ya, leadership is a good thing, but if the leadership of this scene and I fundamentally disagree, even if it is on debatable, not-addressed-in-the-Nicene-creed issues, I'm probably going to be elsewhere, just to spare everybody the conflict.

Redsavior: Man... You’re miss reading me on the leadership issue. I need to clarify that as I get the time. I'm most defin. not talking about a seriously ridged OR restrictive type of leadership. I'm talking more in terms of figureheads, "Global" goals, and things like that. I'm not talking about person A must do what person B says simply because person B is in charge. Squashing flexibility and freedom is NOT going to grow this scene.

BTW, I wouldn't say that every one who believes in strong church leadership is a republican. Also, the Christian dance scene has pretty much been rejected by the existing CCM industry with Andy Hunter being a notable exception, so I don't think you need to fear becoming republican... although... I wouldn't mind that. Too each his or her own kool-aid right?

Full.o.Joy: Not to say that dualcore is in rebellion, but the believers that are against certain traditions in the church are actually in rebellion to God. God has set certain things in place. He gave us apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers and preachers. He gave us deacons and bishops. There is an order and structure in God's Kingdom. As much as we want to deny this order it is there. Now I totally believe we are free in Christ and that freedom is wonderful, but there is a structure in the church that God has put there so that the work of the church gets done. And if this scene exists to introduce people to the love of Jesus, then that is a work of the church.

Redsavior: That too. I'll go more into this in a later article too. I admit, I was being a bit too delicate in my earlier post.

The bottom line is... that despite the fact that the church hurts some people; the church is the very structure God set up for His followers to be united within.

This gets a bit more political, but I'm honestly tired of people bashing and being afraid of the Church as though it's some evil organization while at the same time punishing and blasting those who are in their own organization or share MOST of the same view but express an individual voice at times contrary to what the group as a says. The prime examples here are Zell Miller and Joe Liberman regarding the Iraq War/War on Terror. At least Joe lines up VERY well with 95% of the liberal agenda, but because he came out for the war, he gets blasted.

A liberal organization can be just as evil as a conservative one. If a conservative church can be evil and hateful, so can a liberal group such as moveon.org and others.

DJ Dual Core: Just in the interest of clarity, I am actively involved in a fairly traditional church, have no problem with Biblical Church authority structures and have no beef with The Church.

With that out of the way: Differences around politics and the role of music (worship vs evangelism vs. audience centered art vs. entertainment vs. artist centered art vs business) are going to be divisive whether you are talking about a tightly managed/lead organization (a music ministry) or a loosely lead movement.  People like me are going to _often_ (not always) opt for secular organizations, movements and venues to avoid conflict.

I'm not talking about people with authority issues so deep they can't do church.  I'm talking about a person like myself who simply hold different views anybody who is likely to be a figurehead in a Christian dance music movement.

The only way around this problem (that I can see) is to take issues that go beyond the core Gospel (Christ crucified, risen...) off the table as grounds for participation and points where unity is important.  Naturally, people who DO agree will congregate together.  The trick is for those sub-groups to be loving toward each other and SUPPORTIVE of each other, even though they disagree. 

For example, I support the legalization of fiber and fuel grade hemp (*silly example*).  Let's say I form a crew of like-minded Christians in the Midwest who promote and put on electronica events where hemp literature is distributed.  What I am asking is that you tell whoever you want that you disagree with my crew about promoting hemp, but you don't tell them not to come to our shows and you let me loan you gear if you need it, because I still love YOU and want YOUR shows to fly.

I don't see this happening, but I think it is the ideal.

Redsavior: “With that out of the way: Differences around politics and the role of music (worship vs. evangelism vs. audience centered art vs. entertainment vs. artist centered art vs business) are going to be divisive whether you are talking about a tightly managed/lead organization (a music ministry) or a loosely lead movement.  People like me are going to _often_ (not always) opt for secular organizations, movements and venues to avoid conflict.”

Music is all of that and that is how it should be treated here. If I can't respect the person who only wants it for evangelism, how in the world is he going to respect the fact that I have invested a LOT of time and money into creating it and that I need a buck or two to make the next album?

“The only way around this problem (that I can see) is to take issues that go beyond the core Gospel (Christ crucified, risen...) off the table as grounds for participation and points where unity is important.  Naturally, people who DO agree will congregate together.  The trick is for those sub-groups to be loving toward each other and SUPPORTIVE of each other, even though they disagree.”

That's exactly why we don't have political and spiritual debates here now. What I want us to do is get to the point where we can agree to one of the MANY creeds that have been written HUNDREDS of years ago like the Nicene Creed (sp) and move on from there. At least do that on a national/global scale. On the LOCAL scale, that's up to the individual group where it should be. Let's call it a "limited federal government" with a stronger city/state government.

Full.o.Joy: I wouldn't have any problem with you promoting hemp, IF you made absolutely certain to let people know that you weren't in any way promoting pot. (If hippies really want hemp to be legal they would stop smoking pot long enough for someone in the government to consider it.) BUT that being said, I wouldn't come out against you if you were pro pot, I just wouldn't support you, because there are much greater and eternal matters at stake here and not just if you have a good show or not.

Brandon: Didn't an older version of Tastyfresh in fact have such a creed?  Why yes it did:

--------------
our beliefs

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day, he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
 
 
Contents copyright 1996 Godspeak. All rights reserved.
-------------

Taken from: http://web.archive.org/web/19990209120726/http://www.tastyfresh.com/

I guess the question is, what purpose did having this creed on the early TF site serve, and why was it eventually taken down?

Redsavior: Ask Jamey when he started mucking with the site during the dance scenes dark age.

Brandon: "Dark age?"  I think you meant to say "Golden Age."

Redsavior: No, I mean the period of time when N*Soul was involved in a power struggle that eventually almost destroyed this scene: shakey leadership, bitter hearts, and no clear path.

Brandon: Hmm, maybe we're talking about two different scenes then...

DJ Dual Core: “Music is all of that and that is how it should be treated here. If I can't respect the person who only wants it for evangelism, how in the world is he going to respect the fact that I have invested a LOT of time and money into creating it and that I need a buck or two to make the next album?”

Would that extend to nobody having to prove the ministry value of their music or even that they had "a ministry?"

I ask this not just because people have different ideas and approaches, but because whenever someone is put in that position they are at the mercy of how the other person conceives of ministry PLUS that person's perception of their work.

Redsavior: If the members of the group are getting some spiritual need (to be defined by them) met through the group, I'd say some sort of ministry work has been done.

For some, mowing your sick neighbor's lawn for free is a ministry. For others, it's taking care of babies so that parents can go to a worship service. Still for others, it's just being there as a shoulder to cry on for someone mourning the loss of a loved one.

One thing that really cheeses me off is how churches often feel their preschoolers are not getting enough spiritual training because they are not memorizing bible verses or something like that. They're kids. They barely know how to walk. What is a 2 year-old really getting from memorizing John 3:16? They just need to be shown love and how to love. My mom was the director of a Methodist preschool for years and preschool director at our Baptist church years before that and stupid debates about how the preschool ministry should be run constantly came up.

I may not always follow it, but maybe the best definition of ministry is simply you showing concern or love to another and meeting their need where that person is right now.

DJ Dual Core: “That's exactly why we don't have political and spiritual debates here now.”

So, in terms of being inclusive and having a big tent here at TF do you feel you have been successful? 

Redsavior: It takes a LONG time for old wounds to heal. Part of why I'm pushing this now is to help keep us moving. We're a LOT better than we were 2-3 years ago, but it took some pruning of people to do it. I wish we didn't have to, but it came down to they didn't like the way this site was going and wouldn't simply leave on their own... so I had to force them out. I'm not proud of it and if you look at where they are now; they are still very bitter towards this site and me and openly talk about it. Heck, even I'm somewhat bitter about it too. One day, I hope we can be reunited again though. That is part of unity.

DJ Dual Core: I don't know how to spell Nicene either, but I think it's a fine place to start.  Short, clear, to the point. 

Redsavior: Great! See, we're already finding common ground. We can debate politics in person if/when we actually meet.

Full.o.Joy: I have no problem if you want to spin or throw parties just for fun. I would hope that you wouldn't feel "pressured" to have to "witness" in the scene at all if that isn't your deal. It would just come off fake anyways. For the longest time now, people who have thrown parties or done "Christian" techno because they feel they "have to" or that God will be mad at them if they don't come off very self-righteous and religious. Not that they have to be like the world to win the world, but if they are not truly led of the Spirit or not having fun praising God then it won't be very effective (in my opinion).

Redsavior: I personally believe that at times every one of us will be called to lead someone to Christ. I in no way though expect that EVERYONE is to do this EVERYTIME. We're all called to be witnesses, but not all of us are gifted in that particular way nor are we called to do that as our primary ministry. It's not MINE. I have lead a handful of ppl to Christ... and then failed miserably to disciple them or at least get them connected in a Church.

Anyway... I'm all for fun so long as it's legal and no one gets hurt... too bad.

Full.o.Joy: You were speaking about a ministry. To me, a ministry and preaching the gospel are 2 different things. Having a rave ministry would mean reaching out and loving (ministering to) ravers. Preaching the gospel to them is something different entirely. The ultimate show of love is to preach the Gospel of course...

DJ Dual Core: “For the longest time now, people who have thrown parties or done "Christian" techno because they feel they "have to" or that God will be mad at them if they don't come off very self-righteous and religious.”

I knew a trumpet player who was like that.  He did an event at my old church and punctuated everything he said between songs with "Amen?" as in, "you agree with my preceding pontification, right?"

I'm a big believer is being one's self.  One of the things we can do for each other is to give people space to get to know themselves as artists and then be that person.  One piece of that is not defining ministry (or art) for each other and not expecting anybody to follow a given model. 

Once I saw Bash n' The Code there was a girl there with a big Suicidal Tendencies death's head on the back of her jacket.  That show was probably her introduction to Christian rock and I've always wondered how fast she ran in the other direction as soon as the show was over.  How real Suicidal Tendencies was is debatable but how real Bash was isn't.  They were fake from stem to stern.  I've also wondered what her friend told her about the band to get her to come.  "They're punk.  You'll love it!" 

Gotta be real.  Gotta be real.  Gotta be real.

Full.o.Joy: True. True. I threw a party with Amplified Life once at a fairly well known venue in Charlotte, NC and the owner wanted us to stop in the middle of the show and preach. We literally fought about this for weeks, not knowing if the show was going to go on. I told her that I had no problem preaching, but I thought the best idea was to do it at the end of the show. Then if they want to stay and listen or go it is entirely up to them, they didn't need to be like a deer in the headlights. I didn't want to "trap" anyone into hearing the gospel.

As far as your punk show goes, I would invite punks to see Headnoise. Saw them at Cornerstone last year and they ROCKED! They are straight up about Jesus Christ, but they can rock out with the best of them.

Ecliptik: “Not that they have to be like the world to win the world, but if they are not truly led of the Spirit or not having fun praising God then it won't be very effective (in my opinion).”

My thoughts exactly. After the last Gathering, the exact same message came across us at the same time. I believe that a passion for lost souls to be saved, being humble to hear what God has to say at all times, and Prayer before the show, is a must. Unity? Through Jesus Christ? Yes!

Be humble unto the Holy Spirit. God wouldn't give us anything we couldn't handle.   

DJ Dual Core: “Great! See, we're already finding common ground. We can debate politics in person if/when we actually meet.”

Now that my kids are older maybe we'll meet up at Cornerstone.

Anyway, I had my creeds confused.  I was thinking of the Apostle's Creed, which is quite brief and to the point.  The Nicene Creed is longer, more poetic and doesn't mention Jesus descending into Hell. 

I read them this morning during the children's sermon.  They were in the back of the hymnal.

DJ 404: “Hmm, maybe we're talking about two different scenes then...”

No. The scene we have now is a result of that "dark age" that Dave was speaking of. The late 90's gave our "scene" a hard blow when the leadership over N*Soul changed. Rumors and facts spread about what was going on inside the world's number 1 Christian Dance label causing artists to become leery of signing with N*Soul, causing new releases to eventually stop. Artists began to release their own stuff on indie labels and now in 2006, the Christian Dance scene has a hopeful plethora of smaller labels with boundless opportunities for expansion. The wounds have finally healed from that debacle and a new generation of artists is now creating a scene.

The easy answer to unity is this: move on and work together.

Redsavior: Sadly, I still feel like some of the wounds are still there. They're scabbed over and almost healed now, but some people got hurt pretty bad. Those are probably the ones who were doing something before and just have well... pretty much stopped and fallen off the face of the planet. I'm not talking about the ones who simply left the scene and moved on like Jamey or AJ Mora, but others.

Brandon: I'm well aware of the hard times that befell the Christian dance music industry in the late 90s but to equate only the artists and personalities surrounding N*Soul with 'the scene' cuts out a whole other universe of stuff going on at the same time that had little to do with producers and record labels.  I'm talking about Christian DJs out in the secular scene, event promoters, outreach ministries, ravers, and the grassroots networks that help make up a scene, that sort of thing.  

When I said 'golden age,' I was referring to the time period when you'd see parties that were sponsored by Tastyfresh, N*Soul and Found.  Foundkids chapters all over North America, collaborating with or at least keeping in touch with other ministries/promoters like Sanctify Productions, 360, Christgroove, YOU productions, Amplified Life, Unified Soul, Life Zone, etc.  Outreach mix tapes and flyers getting into ravers' hands by street teams, etc.  The 'community' side of the scene (for lack of a better term) was peaking around the same time as the industry side of the scene was about to go into its temporary death spiral.  The community side certainly hit the skids as well after the Found tour and the breakup of some other ministry groups, but that downturn came well after the music industry's 'dark times.'  

I guess it depends on how you define a scene, as a market/industry subset or a subculture...I don't want to minimize the importance of producers and record labels or anything like that but they're a part of the equation, not its sum total.  That's all I was getting at.

Redsavior: What followed your 'golden age'?

I think the falling of the GA was the mechanism that has pushed us out of our shell. Things always are darkest before the dawn right

Brandon: Well it all comes back to John 12:24: “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds."

Mp3.com and indie labels came along at the right time to pick up the forced slack left behind by N*Soul's sudden untouchability.  (The rising popularity of CD decks didn't hurt either) The tastyfresh message boards and email lists like the DM4C came along at the right time to pick up the community slack left behind by the demise of a Found network.  Heck, Found Ontario didn't start doing its own events until 2000.  Illumination, Fusion, and other important events came along as well.

Now there was another crash in 2002/2003, but that's another story for another time.