"Gay Pride" is our doing as Christians. We oppressed them so much and singled them out from all of the other sin problems in society that they felt the need to rise up to defend themselves.

You don't see "Alcoholic Pride" or "Abuser Pride" or "Drug Addict Pride" or "Liar Pride" or "Bigot Pride" or "Embezzler Pride" or "False Doctrine Pride" or "Capitalist Pride". Because those sin lifestyles were not oppressed by people.

Just making a point. There's no biblical verse that differentiates homosexuality from all of the other sins we all make daily as Christians, so you first can't argue that a homosexual can't accept Christ and walk as a Christian without first giving up his/her homosexuality. That's like demanding that someone stop being addicted to drugs or stop lying or stop looking at porn BEFORE coming a Christian, which is absurd.

Christians who are "so disturbed" by homosexuality aren't disturbed by the sin itself. They're disturbed by the thought of gay sex. Let's be honest. Seeing someone smoke or lie isn't as unsettling to we straight people as it is seeing a man kiss a man, or thinking about gay anal sex. Jesus can handle that stuff no problem. We just can't, and that's okay, we're imperfect.....

.... but we also need to stop being "oh so disturbed" by all of this gay stuff and learn to accept them and love them just as we love our friends who lie, cheat, pretend, oppress, and do all the other random sins that we all do every day.

"The Son of Man came to the gay pride parade, and they say, 'Here is a gay lover, a friend of faggots and perverts' (Matthew 11:19, The Rish Comparison)"

Hope that's convicting to some of you.

At this point I'll just throw out the usual caution to refrain from making this debate personal.

It seems that some of you seem to think that there are two camps in this discussion:

1. Hate the sin, and hate the sinner.
2. Love the sinner, and love (or at least ignore) the sin.

I'm in neither camp. Also, I've been focusing on homosexuality not because I feels it's a more heinous sin (it ain't), but because that's what's been brought up in this thread. I was going to say the following stuff yesterday, but it seemed the discussion was winding down....

I'm as bad a sinner as any homosexual out there. I willfully sin every day of my life. I'm not trying to brag about my sin. I hate it. But I don't want anyone to think that I've got some kind of superiority complex going on. I was addicted to porn for years after becoming a Christian. I know the sin that Christians (including me) can commit. When I said that I'm nothing without the grace of God, I know of what I speak.

The single issue that I have with participating in the gay pride parade is that the parade is a celebration of a sin. Would I be bothered to hear of a Christian participating in a marijuana pride parade, a promiscuity pride parade, an adultery pride parade, a gluttony pride ride, a porn pride parade, a gossip pride parade, etc.... Yes.

Does that mean I've never been guilty--or won't be guilty in the future--of any of these sins? No. But I hate the sin in my life, even while still being guilty of committing it. I don't celebrate it.

For the record, regarding sexual sins, as I see it, the Bible states that ALL sex outside of marriage is sin. Yup, that means homosexuality. It also means adultery, getting it on with your boy/girlfriend, having a threesome, anything that's not between a husband and wife, and only a husband and wife. IMO, some heterosexual Christians like to see homosexuality as being a worse sin for two reasons: (1) it seems "unnatural" to them, and (2) it's a sin that they won't be guilty of, so they feel safe in harshly condemning it.

Let me use an example to try to clarify my position in loving the sinner without condoning the sin....

A number of years ago, a member of our extended family had an affair, left her family, divorced her husband, and married her lover. Denise and I talked a lot about what our response as Christians should be. We never beat them up about it. We didn't need to. The family member knew us well enough already to know what our position was. She knew that Denise and I saw her adultery as sin and that we did not condone it. Would we have said as much to them directly had it ever come up? Heck, yeah.

However, did that mean that we looked down on them and judged them? Heck, no. We always treated them the same as we did other members of the family. To my knowledge, we were about the only--if not the only--ones in the family that helped them pack and load up the truck when they moved out of the area a couple years later.

They knew that we didn't condone their sin, but they also knew that they were still family and still loved.

Anyone who loves a homosexual less than they do anyone else is guilty of sin. However, IMO, anyone who conveys the message that homosexuality (or any other sin) is a thing to be celebrated is also guilty of sin.

Regarding Matthew's scripture translation....


This I can agree with. However, the more accurate translation for the scenario we've been discussing would be:


I still agree with 11:19b; however, it is 11:19a that I strongly disagree with.

My prayer is (1) that God will keep me aware of the sin in my life, especially sins that I overlook or like to make excuses for, and (2) that, while hating the sin (mine and others), I will never forget to love the sinner.

I concur with John, in fact, lot of it goes along with what last sunday's sermon was, which was on homosexuality.  But like John mentioned, can't forget to mention rest of the sexual sins along with homosexuality.

So I still stand on that are plenty of times to witness to these people whether by appointment of God or day to day living with Christ instead of being in a gay "pride" parade.

This thread is stressing me out.

I completely agree with you that Christianity is not about acting a certain way. I'm probably the best-known Calvinist on here, so it'd be silly for me to start promoting a works-based view of salvation.

On the other hand, our beliefs are what control our behavior. If I'm saved, my actions should evidence that.

I'm currently reading Tim Challies' book on Christian discernment. He addresses the seeming contradiction in the Bible in that Jesus at one point tells us not to juddge, "lest we be judged", yet in another place, it tells us to be discerning, and to cling to what is good. We are not to judge things which we don't understand, like the hearts of men, when we do not have the ability to see into their hearts. On the other hand, the promotion of a blatantly sinful act is something that I CAN see, and it's something that I have a responsibility to judge.

I didn't know capitalism was a sin…