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Author Topic: Going Live - need help!  (Read 480 times)
Matthew Risher
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« on: June 02, 2008, 12:13:27 PM »
I'm not sure if this would be more appropriate for the producers board or what, but here goes! I'm going live. What I'm wanting to be able to do, ultimately, is control loops and run software synths/sample packs via a controller keyboard though Ableton Live on my Macbook Pro.

Right now I've got the midiman 2 in / 2 out USB midi control device. I'm having serious trouble with latency within Ableton Live however - I'm thinking that turning off Airport might be a fix, but I also will need to get an external drive. Not a big deal.

My real question is - audio interfaces. The external drive I'm going to want to use will run off the Firewire 800. Should I get an audio interface that runs off the Firewire 400? Or is this going to cause problems? Ideally I'd like to have at minimum 2 in (1 stereo in) / 4 out (2 stereo out) for the interface.

Help!!
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Dave Richards
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2008, 02:44:38 PM »
I'd avoid firewire for everything. Two reasons:

1) USB 2.0 is slightly faster than 1394a. If you can get 1394b stuff that's faster.
2) USB can be hot pluged/unpluged. With firewire, you will fry your interface boards if you try unplugging it with either the computer or attached device turned on. Being mobile, this is a serious drawback to getting your gear packed up and cleared away after a set change.
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Matthew Risher
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2008, 08:47:16 PM »
I might need to get the drive as a firewire simply to cut down on latency. But I heard (?) that both the 400 and 800 are on the same bus so using two at the same time can cut down the speed?

At any rate. I've got a powered USB hub, so it shouldn't be a HUGE deal if I'm running a mouse, midiman and audio interface off the USB hub, right? Or at least split either the midiman or the audio interface off onto the other USB port on the machine itself...
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Dave Richards
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2008, 08:52:43 PM »
What's the laptop and how many usb ports? I'd try to run the audio card on it's own port and use a hub for midi controllers.

USB will be fast enough. I'm getting 5ms with my fasttrackpro.
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2008, 07:25:06 AM »
Quote from: Dave Richards on June 02, 2008, 02:44:38 PM
I'd avoid firewire for everything. Two reasons:

1) USB 2.0 is slightly faster than 1394a. If you can get 1394b stuff that's faster.


Maybe in rated speed, but in real-world performance, firewire's sustained throughput has always been faster than USB, even USB 2.0.



So Matt, I'd stick with a Firewire external HDD. As far as the two being on the same bus, and cutting down speed, I've never heard of that, so  I can't really say anything to that.

Firewire will also be good for you if you have a MacBoook, because I believe they still only have 2 USB ports (my MBP only has 2, stupid Apple) and it could keep you from having to use a hub.

Quote from: Dave Richards on June 02, 2008, 02:44:38 PM
2) USB can be hot pluged/unpluged. With firewire, you will fry your interface boards if you try unplugging it with either the computer or attached device turned on. Being mobile, this is a serious drawback to getting your gear packed up and cleared away after a set change.

Where did you hear that? That's just crazy talk. Firewire is hot-swappable. It always has been.
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2008, 07:54:25 AM »
The manual for my external Western Digital HDD. It came with a rather long warning sheet.
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Dave Richards
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 07:58:38 AM »
Ok... M-audio says it too.

Quote
Reports have come to our attention of isolated problems when hot-plugging IEEE 1394 (aka “FireWire”) devices. (Hot-plugging refers to making 1394/FireWire connections when one or more of the devices—including the computer—is on.)

When hot-plugging, there are rare occurrences where either the FireWire peripheral or the FireWire port on the host computer is rendered permanently inoperable. While M-Audio products adhere rigidly to the FireWire industry standard and pass stringent internal testing, the possibility remains that hot-plugging your M-Audio FireWire interface with some computers may result in the type of problem described here.

We strongly encourage you to protect your equipment by refraining from hot-plugging any bus-powered FireWire device, including the M-Audio family of FireWire products. Connect your FireWire device while both the computer and FireWire device are powered off. Power on the FireWire device, then turn the computer on last. If you are using bus power (systems with IEEE1394 6-pin connectors) make sure you make the cable connection first, then turn the FireWire device power switch on, and turn the computer system on last.

M-Audio is being proactive in investigating any issues that may adversely affect our customers. Please consult the Knowledge Base in the Support section at www.m-audio.com for updates on this important issue.

I would just avoid it like the plague for a live set-up.
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 08:04:06 AM »
The RME is a good interface for studio work, I don't see why it wouldn't work really.  I personally have a USB Audio 8 from NI, so far it works quite well for what I am doing with it.  Some controllers come with audio interfaces so its a possible option for those.
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 08:38:38 AM »
My Mad Dog enclosure came with no such warning, and for about 6 months hasn't destroyed my firewire port, with plugging/unplugging about 5 times a week (one for each work day, for it stays at work)
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 09:18:13 AM »
It may be that more power goes into an audio card than an external drive.
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 09:28:26 AM »
Possibly.
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Matthew Risher
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2008, 12:01:16 PM »
Dave (and anyone else) here are the specs:

MacBook Pro 2.5 C2D, 2G Ram. 2 USB 2.0 ports, 2 firewires (800/400, one bus). Drive is a 5500 RPM which I suspect is causing latency problems.

So I'm guessing that doing the external drive in a firewire 800 will seriously help with my latency issues. I'm hesitant to stick an audio device on the firewire 400 for two reasons: The bus is shared and I want to maximize what the external drive can do, and second, Dave's concerns about hot-swapping the audio device frying your machine are concerns I have heard many times before, and I'd rather go with a USB device if the latency isn't going to be a huge issue.

So then the plan would be: put a USB audio device on one port, and hook up a powered hub to the other, so that I can plug in my midiman, mouse, etc.

I THINK that is a good plan at least! Dave, you have a MBP and you're using Ableton. Did you have SERIOUS latency issues the first time you fired it up too?
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Dave Richards
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 12:16:09 PM »
I'd bet it's all your sound card and not your drive. I'm not having any latency issues with my macbook pro g4 1.34 using the HDD.
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thepudd
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2008, 03:02:07 PM »
Regarding USB, something be aware of. If you're using a powered hub this may not be an option, but I've seen cases in MBPs where only 1 USB port is powered, because the power on the second is siphoned off for keyboard and trackpad. Apple have confirmed this in phone calls... though I've also heard of systems not affected.
So just food for thought.

And I've never heard a bad thing about RME. They're legends.
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Matthew Risher
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2008, 03:50:28 PM »
Quote from: Dave Richards on June 03, 2008, 12:16:09 PM
I'd bet it's all your sound card and not your drive. I'm not having any latency issues with my macbook pro g4 1.34 using the HDD.

The onboard sound card then? So the fix may in fact be an external audio device, rather than an external drive.

I'll put a call into Apple Care and find out I suppose!
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