Justice?
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djrodimus
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« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2007, 08:26:59 AM »
Quote from: dmitri_vaganov on October 31, 2007, 08:24:15 AM
Yes, I don't want to be a judge of them until I know their heart. You are right 100%. It's just a red flag for me that's something is not right.

x2

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Carey
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« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2007, 08:27:07 AM »
Dmitri,

I don't approve of swearing in songs, and I won't play songs with swearing in them on my show.  

I don't think artists who are Christians should be putting that type of stuff in their music.

However, I don't think you can say someone is not a Christian (or not an "on-fire" Christian, or however you want to phrase it) because they have swearing in a song.

We are Saved by Grace, not by our works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians)

Our Righteousness is like filthy rags (Isaiah)

People screw up, that doesn't mean they aren't a Christian who is passionate about serving God, that just means they still make mistakes.

I'm not saying that makes it ok for them to do whatever they please, but I'm saying we all screw up, so it's no different for any of us.
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dmitri_vaganov
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« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2007, 08:31:51 AM »
I agree with you Carey. I wonder why would I want words in my song that is offensive to God?
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« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2007, 08:32:06 AM »
Quote from: dmitri_vaganov on October 31, 2007, 08:24:15 AM
It's just a red flag for me that's something is not right.

That's kinda the point though, none of us are sinless, so all of us have big red flags  Smiley
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« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2007, 08:35:57 AM »
Quote from: dmitri_vaganov on October 31, 2007, 08:31:51 AM
I agree with you Carey. I wonder why would I want words in my song that is offensive to God?

I wouldn't, but swearing is not my weak spot.

We all have different areas God is helping us overcome.

Drugs have never been a temptation for me and I sometimes have a hard time understanding why they are such a struggle for people.

Lust is something I do struggle with and I have to take my eyes and thoughts captive every day.

It's different for everyone, we all have different things we struggle with, but we can't look down on someone as a "lesser" Christian just because the thing they struggle with is something we don't struggle with at all.

It's ok to make a decision to not play their song because of the lyrics, I support that.

Just be careful not to make a decision about how serious they are about God over a snapshot in time.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 08:39:23 AM by Dancechapel » Logged
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dmitri_vaganov
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« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2007, 08:41:28 AM »
Point taken.
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Dave Richards
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« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2007, 08:41:46 AM »
Quote from: djrodimus on October 31, 2007, 08:26:59 AM
Quote from: dmitri_vaganov on October 31, 2007, 08:24:15 AM
Yes, I don't want to be a judge of them until I know their heart. You are right 100%. It's just a red flag for me that's something is not right.

x2

Yet...

Quote from: djrodimus on October 31, 2007, 08:25:56 AM
Nevertheless, this isn't a debate over whether the guys of Justice could be saved or not... as far as I'm concerned its over the music. And so far the music isn't Christian. Period.

again... 1 point of data... and you are judging. A word of caution is one thing, withdrawing support is a completely different one.

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djrodimus
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« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2007, 09:03:48 AM »
Quote from: Dave Richards on October 31, 2007, 08:41:46 AM
Quote from: djrodimus on October 31, 2007, 08:26:59 AM
Quote from: dmitri_vaganov on October 31, 2007, 08:24:15 AM
Yes, I don't want to be a judge of them until I know their heart. You are right 100%. It's just a red flag for me that's something is not right.

x2

Yet...

Quote from: djrodimus on October 31, 2007, 08:25:56 AM
Nevertheless, this isn't a debate over whether the guys of Justice could be saved or not... as far as I'm concerned its over the music. And so far the music isn't Christian. Period.

again... 1 point of data... and you are judging. A word of caution is one thing, withdrawing support is a completely different one.



yes correct. im JUDGING the music. Show me in the Bible where is says you can't judge someones music. I'm not judging them personally. If we went on that pretense then whenever someone commited a crime and were sent to jail for it then that would be a sin becuase we judged what they did... I will always be the judge for myself and my family as to what is acceptable to hear and see. Yes the judge.. judge Rodimus. And I will always state my opinion on a subject if its open for discussion. Its not a sin to say SIN IS WRONG! "By saying you did a bad thing" you aren't judging the persons soul or making a statement on thier salvation...you're simply say "hey you did a bad thing."
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 09:05:20 AM by djrodimus » Logged


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« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2007, 09:08:51 AM »
The flaw is that you are saying all of their music is sinful b/c one song is. It's the same logic. Are they guilty of having a sinful song? Yes. Are they guilty of writing nothing but sinful music? Probably not.

Now... since music has neither a savable soul nor is it even live... how could it be sinful? I propose to you that you are judging their fruit and that is a judgment upon them... not their music.

You are withdrawing total support based on their actions with one song. Seems like you are judging them to me.
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djrodimus
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« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2007, 09:09:36 AM »
Quote from: Dave Richards on October 31, 2007, 09:08:51 AM
The flaw is that you are saying all of their music is sinful b/c one song is. It's the same logic. Are they guilty of having a sinful song? Yes. Are they guilty of writing nothing but sinful music? Probably not.

Now... since music has neither a savable soul nor is it even live... how could it be sinful? I propose to you that you are judging their fruit and that is a judgment upon them... not their music.

You are withdrawing total support based on their actions with one song. Seems like you are judging them to me.



I disagree.  Grin
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dmitri_vaganov
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« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2007, 09:25:51 AM »
Does 1 Corinthians 5:15 give us permission to judge Christians?
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« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2007, 10:01:09 AM »
I think there's a big difference between judging them as people and judging them as artists, and this point in the thread seems to be equating the two. I don't plan to support Justice. I won't try to tear them down, but I also won't support them. The lyrical content in that song is enough to keep me as an individual from choosing to listen to or buy their music or otherwise support them as musical artists. That's a choice in what music I want to listen to. No big spiritual thing there.
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« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2007, 10:11:22 AM »
passing judgement on Justice based on the content of one song is like passing judgement on Paul befause he participated in the stoning of Stephen.

Besides...You guys don't even know the business arrangement of that track.  perhaps Justice did a backing track,  sent it off for vox,  and that was the end of their participation.  I know I've made tracks in the past that seemed like a good idea at the time....Played tracks in sets that seemed good at the time....That i would CRINGE at doing now..And that has been a time not so long ago.  Should my body of work be judged on that alone?  NO...Emphatically NO.  Should ANYONE'S body of work be based on one track?  NEVER.

Time to take the kid gloves off for a bit....

The important thing to remember here is we're ALL sinners.  We ALL have things in our pasts that we're not proud of.  How do you know they're proud of this work?  Maybe it's something that now they wish they hadn't done.  How would you like it if people judged you based on one thing you did in your past?  Probably WOULDN"T like it at all.  Therefore,  if we don't know what's in a person's heart,  how can we pass judgement.  Are we,  as Christains,  supposed to be damning,  or loving?  Do we help people become what God wants them to be by shunning them,  or by bringing them closer?  Do we bring people closer to God by pointing out what they've done wrong,  or by showing them WHY God loves them?

I know I've screwed up...I've done it several times this morning...From swearing at my alarm clock when it went off,  to oggling a secretary walking across the street,  to eating that second doughnut when I shouldn't have.  Do those things mean I've fallen from grace?  Absolutely not.  God loves me because he WANTS to love me,  not because he HAS to love me.  He made me knowing that i'd fall short on a regular basis...That I would be a bit of a dissapointment.  However,  God loved me enough to send His son to die for my screwups.  isn't that amazing?  just think about it!  God loves us enough that he would put the most important thing to him on this Earth,  knowing that his primary purpose was to die on the cross.

As the saying goes...."Judge not lest ye be judged."  "Do not be concerned with the speck in your neighbor's eye when there is a stick in yours."  Who am I to call another human unclean?  what have I done that gives me such authority?  Nothing at all.  I've been a Christian for 17 years,  and have attended church my entire life.  I've been through ups and downs,  but it DOES NOT give me authority to pass judgement on others.

if you just don't like the music,  that's one thing...But to pass judgement as people,  that's another.
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Dave Richards
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« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2007, 10:20:55 AM »
Quote from: dmitri_vaganov on October 31, 2007, 09:25:51 AM
Does 1 Corinthians 5:15 give us permission to judge Christians?

Since it's not in my bible... no. Wink Check yer reference.

If you mean v12. I'd still argue no in the context you are trying to argue. Balance that with restoring your brother gently (Galations 6). If you are going to judge them, you better make sure that there is no evidence or even the hint of sin in your own life. You better be perfect as God is.

If Justice isn't a Christian group... then there is nothing to judge. Their outside of the Church. If they are, then you have the obligation to gentle restore them or at least to try to before expelling them.

Quote from: Galations 6
1. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5. for each one should carry his own load.

Here's what this WHOLE debate comes down to:

Quote from: Galations 6
12. Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13. Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh.

If Justice is a group of Christians... they've got some bad fruit. Dima & Nate... so do you. you aren't perfect. I don't blame you for not wanting to support them over one song. That's your choice. It's the carrying it further as it is a reflection directly into their hearts as the ONLY reflection of what is in their hearts. Even a convicted murderer who is saved in prison still has born the fruits of his actions.

Quote from: Galations 5
4. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Faith without works is dead, but the works that shows faith are steeped in expressions of love. How are you expressing love in this discussion? Granted, it's a question for Justice too, but hey... they, like you, have to deal with that themselves. Hopefully though, they have some great brothers and sisters in Christ who are helping them in that struggle. The thing is though... this thread is not.
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djrodimus
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« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2007, 10:26:49 AM »
after 5 pages it looks like we've come to the realization again that we ALL have different opinions / interpetations of the Bible...so I wonder...will continuing this debate really profit anything or anyone?  Huh Huh Huh
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