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you...

You would seriously be surprised at what goes on behind the doors of the youth room.  The world has lost touch with the value of purity and it's been infecting youth groups for years....and it's getting worse.  These days you're still a "goodie two shoes" if you graduate having only had sex with 2-3 people.  I'm not kidding.  People find out you're a virgin and are floored....and are quick to offer the option of 'fixing' that 'problem'.

I had several girls OFFERED to me by others or was asked to help 'fix' those girls by people who didn't know better.

Done and done. 


Sounds like moshing is considered dancing.

I don't need music, lights, people, your opinions (anyone not just JTX) or any special and perfect setting to worship my God.  If people can't find God because they are too busy criticizing then that's their problem.  If we started to practice our individual non-corporate and personal case-sensitive methodologies rather than complain about how different they are then I wouldn't be wasting my time getting annoyed by this type of closed heartedness.

if God+moshing=truly engaging with their Creator then leave them alone and sit at home with your self made principles.

[/rant]

the scripture i referenced from Paul simply states that we must be all things to all people which includes engaging in the cultures of our times which Paul and Jesus did in their ministries.  it doesn't however mean giving up our beliefs and the ability to discern between the world and Biblical truth.  you tell me in the the Bible where it says "thou shall not mosheth unto Jesus" and i will let this go.  otherwise my view point stands.  there are countless cases (mostly in the Old Testament) of people dancing before God.  how is this any different.  because you don't have a "good feeling" about it?

John 4:21-24
21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

i don't see any reference to tradition or moshing.  i guess we're both wrong.

btw....it is widely speculated as to the nature of what Nadab and Abihu did to cause such a punishment.  "strange fire" is vague at best.

Again, the passage is Paul's position on witnessing. It has nothing to do with worship.


There is some evidence that dancing can be a valid form of worship. While I don't necessarily buy the arguments, I can respect that those who make those arguments are studying the scriptures. Moshing (and yes, I've been to shows where it went on and I quickly got out of the way) isn't merely dancing. It's violent, and people get hurt. It is also definitely not orderly, which our worship is required to be.


It's pretty clear that they were punished because they brought foreign ideas into worship. I'm not searching my concordance, trying to find "mosh", or trying to find out exactly what kind of fire they made. The point I'm making is that we have instructions of what we are to do in worship, and what attitudes we are to do it with. If moshing and stage diving are valid, pretty soon we'll have drugs used as sacraments...


Our motive needs to be that we want to obey God's directions for worship. Motive is one thing, but sinning with good motives is still sin. See Nadab and Abihu, and Uzzah. Loud music is not orderly. Blazing lights does not lead to quiet contemplation. It's sensory overload.

It's been a LLLLOooooonnnnnggggg time since I've seen JT in a spiritual debate.

I agree for young people who are bombarded everyday by overstimulation of every sort be it TV, Video Games, Cell phones, Text Messages, IMs, Myspace, Internet, Email, etc etc etc...  sometimes sitting in quiet contemplation is very hard to concentrate on God and it may come with discipline but until that time, they may need an enviroment that overstimulates their spirit with God rather than their soul and mind like the other things do.

A couple of the kids that we have brought to club worship didn't find that they wanted to dance the night away there in worship but instead they found that in the CLUB environment they could sit down at one of the tables and journal in the presence of God...


On another note, I have seen videos of our our church's organization international chairman crowd surfing...  of course he's from Australia so that's why I wasn't surprised when L8-01 said go for it with crowd surfing     but he said, "I don't crowd surf because I'm young, I'm over 60.  I don't crowd surf at every convention or outreach we do that'd be crazy.  But when I feel lead by God to jump out into the crowd, I do it, because it sets kids free.  It really breaks them out of thinking in a box of 'do this don't do that.'"

so that being said, I think if it's pure, it's not happening every time now, and it's not a distraction (like maybe it's during some fast praise song where kids are already jumping up and down and stuff.)  I say just let them do it, you never know it might just set some kids free in God and open doors in their hearts that were shut off from hearing the Gospel.  God is much bigger than lights, subs, etc etc. And as long as we are respectful of Him and keep our hearts yielding to Him, he can use whatever we bring.