I like pie

did you read all the way through or just one or two selective posts? 

i agree with everything you just said, and i'm part of an emerging church of sorts, the main problem i have is we as christians don't know how to conduct ourselves with people who don't follow jesus and as a result severely alienate ourselves from the people around us.  we are trying to bring people to Jesus and so far the "church" in north america is failing miserably. sorry about the rant but i get so tired of people who can't see past their own "christian" noses because they are so focused on being "saved" and not focused on trying to be Jesus to other people.  i am in no way a complacent believer, you say we need to show true love to God and while i agree, its the greatest commandment but you are only saying half of what Jesus said, the second was to love other people.  where's your love man?   If you don't love the people around you then how on earth can you say you love God?   So far nothing neutral has been said that i can see.   there are certain things i don't agree with, in certain cases, but because i care more about the relationship i have with the person instead of being blinded by a few things in their lives that i don't agree with, doesn't mean i can't show the love of God to them.  no one is asking you to lay down when these "topics" come up.  you jumped into this whole conversation without knowing several of the people involved, the situations they just came from, and the relationships that were built over the last few weeks.  a few simple negative comments from someone who is unwilling to reach out to people and they will be driven away! seriously!  how is our small group supposed to grow if everyone puts up their own staunch religious barriers, where are you going to draw the line?  we live in a gray zone and christians can't afford to live in a bubble.

actually... the way debates work is you give your opinion and then your opinion gets challenged. There's nothing in this thread that says it should be locked.

After spending a week with Alex, I see him at a starting point. He knows it's wrong. He just hasn't let it go yet. It's an area where he needs to grow spiritually. Now... beyond that, at LEAST he's honest about his sin and is calling it a sin. Not every Christian is open about their short comings and it's the honesty that I applaud, not the sin. I can tell you that knowing his sin, I wouldn't put in charge of certain things, but I'm not going to kick him out of the group either.

I think one thing that often gets overlooked is where someone's come from. How far are they from their "starting point"? To give a concrete example... If, at the time he became a Christian, someone used to spend hours a day on Internet viewing hardcore porn but now views "R-rated" porn, say, a total of half an hour per month, is this not growth and improvement? Isn't this something for which he can praise God to others, even while still not "pure"?

I worked with the recovery ministry at our former church. It was often a horrible experience. Not because of the guys seeking help (I enjoyed talking with them) but because of the attitude of the other male leader. This guy talked often, but rarely listened. His talking was more like a sermon or devotional than expressing anything personal. At one point, he actually proclaimed, "I've got all of my sin issues dealt with."

I'm still working through my whole view of the grace/holiness thing, but one thing that I firmly believe is that, over time, if I love God more, I likely will sin somewhat less (although as Steven Brown says, "I'm not going to get much better."); however, if I sin less, it's far less likely that I will love God more.

We all have sins we commit that we are comfortable with and overlook. It might be sex/lust (don't forget, checking out the melons of the woman in the produce aisle is lust too), it might be pride/self-righteousness, it might be gossiping/criticizing others to make me feel better about myself.

All other things being equal, I'll take the self-admitted sinner over the saint who feels "I've got all of my sin issues dealt with".

hey, i hear ya.  i just hear too much from people that have had input into my life (good and bad) having no problems telling people to love God but then turning around and treating me like dirt.  i have struggled with bitterness in the past but to be honest i've had a lot of "new life" in the last few years that has made me bolder about caring for other people despite all the short comings of the "church."  i don't know too many outsiders who would dare step into a church because of a deep seated fear of christians and i just don't think that is a very healthy thing for the church and it tells me that some things we cling to so hard that are based on reading between the lines of scripture and not any black and white proof, an opinion of an interpretation....  anyway, it tells me that there might be some things we could be doing differently.  i believe that Church needs to start leaving the "church" and i'm sure you would agree with that to a certain extent.  Are we here to just discuss interpretation behind the pews or to spread the love of Jesus to people around us?  From my experience we've leaned too heavily in the one direction and people don't get a chance to see God's love manifested in us.  wouldn't you agree with that?   

i have an interesting example of when i was in highschool, we had an english class section on poetry or something and the teacher encouraged us to bring in lyrics and music that influence us so we could critique the content.  some of the kids in the class listened to Marilyn Manson and were gonna bring something of his into class.  well, i had several christian buddies in the class that made a big stink about it and decided that if Manson's music came into the classroom, they would walk out as a protest.  let me tell you that not one person in that class, not even me, admired them for sticking to their principles. why?  for one, no one saw it as "oh, look, christians living a righteous life"  no it was "some dumbasses living a self-righteous life"   They didn't affect anyone in a postitive way.  In my opinion, its those christian friends of mine that had the "watered down" viewpoint that you coined. 

sorry, i'm not sure how to read you.  several of your statements are laced with what looks like sarcasm to me.  if your way of calling out me/us as "cool Christians are selfish" with our watered down viewpoints as a better "way to be an example of loving God," then i don't want any of what you are selling.  i'm excited about bringing new people into my Jesus focused community and the endless opportunities for discipleship, like i haven't in a long time.  i know i talked to many people at Cornerstone about my passion for God and the people around me, you can't cram all of that into a "watered down viewpoint" box, i just don't think its that simple.

oh, and on that topic of end days, anyone else get dreams every night with visions of the last day ?? I sure do. Multi colours and all. I heard once some biblical quotes on that. Oh and (sorry to post this stuff here, but well, I'm getting a lot of messages and attacks these days) the last 8 days, I had the number 6*6 right in my face no less than 3 times. Sorry to come on so heavy, please add me as a P.S to your prayers.