It's nice on theory and paper. But I'm not quite sure if it'll fly.

Essentially, you're asking the DJs to front the money for the event.  55 tickets is a lot of sales. When many of these events often bring in 40-80 people.  Even with big name artists it can be hard.

Just looking at the figures:

220x$5 = $1,100
10% for org = $110
Leaves us with about $1,000
$500 for promoter
$500 split 5 ways between the DJs = approx. $100.

That's on a full house.  I've seldom seen such events meet their hoped for goal. Even 110 people would be a pretty high attendance.

110x$5 = $550
10% for org = $55
Leaves us with about $500
$250 for promoter
$250 split 5 ways between the DJs = approx. $50.

And let's look at the bottom end, say 40-60 people.
55x$5 = $275
10% for org = $27
Leaves us with about $250
$125 for promoter
$125 split 5 ways between the DJs = approx. $25.

You've also got all the DJ's getting an 1/8th. Even though you've got opener's and headliners.

However, what is your equipment cost? sound system? lighting? etc? Printing (tickets & promo cards)? 

What happens if one DJ sells 70 tickets and another only 20 tickets? How are you going to handle that. You need that decided up front from the beginning. Otherwise, people will feel burned. 

Also, "Promoter" what does this mean? Let me explain...

You may not find one person to fill that complete roll, you might...but not completely likely.  For example: I've got sound, lighting, CDJ, etc. And although I've done some graphics work - promo cards are not my expertise. Nor am I currently connected to a printer. Nor is publication and getting the word out my skills.  So, I can provide an element of "Promoter" but not the fullness.  That said, in the past I've worked with some who have the skills to create awesome promo cards, get them printed and spread the word. But they did not have the equipment nor the $$$ to rent equipment.

It might even be better to dismiss the concept of "Promoter" and instead establish a budget for resources & needs.

How much do we allocate to equipment (rental or stipend to someone who owns equipment)
How much do we budget for graphic design of flyer and promo cards?
How much for printer?
How much for advertising and where? any christian radio stations in the region?
How much for concessions (CostCo is the bomb for this...get the stuff cheap, sell it cheap, sell a bunch)
How much for lightsticks, etc?
How much for rent or if use of a church facilities a "love offering"
What about corporate sponsorship? Tithe offering at church?
What about police and/or security?  The first event we did on Halloween we hired a police officer.  It was a bit pricey and a piece of cake for him.  The next event, I had my Sensei (a huge 6ft+, 7th degree black belt, former officer, and semi-pro wrestler).  With Phantasmos/Illumination we did security in house.  Plan to have an average of 5 security people in house.  See if you can get specialized shirts, orange vest, or even security covers.  And a few hand-helds.
And if you've got a nurse at your church, see if you can get them to volunteer. Pay in gourmet chocolate if you have too.

Sure none of us want problems. And usually there aren't any.  Praise God!!!! But hey, whether it's a sprained ankle, exhertion or heat stroke, or more sadly someone who decided to pop all their pills before going cause they knew they couldn't at the venue. 

I am just trying to provide some insights to consider beforehand. The more is thought out up front the better the event will come off.

I think your goal of 220 is great...but I question the realism in the region. I have just moved down here and I do not know what potential the scene has. But I've visited Club Worship and they've had opportunity to build a bit of a following.  Of course "Reading" and "Baltimore" are two completely different beverages.


I am NOT trying to shoot you down, so please don't take any of this wrong. I am just winnowing the thoughts so the chaff can be blown away.

- Saj

Saj, thank you for taking time to form that reply.  You bring up some very good points.  While I address them below, I hope others continue to give their feedback too.

"It's nice on theory and paper. But I'm not quite sure if it'll fly. ... 55 tickets [per DJ] is a lot of sales. When many of these events often bring in 40-80 people."
This is exactly why I came up with this theory.  II Productions events would bring in around 100 people (including volunteers).  I want to throw another event, but something drastic has got to change if the event is to become fuller and I'm not to become burnt out for 2 years. 

"You've also got all the DJ's getting an 1/8th. Even though you've got opener's and headliners."
Yup, all are paid the same.  The order may be determined by ticket sales.

"However, what is your equipment cost? sound system? lighting? etc? Printing (tickets & promo cards)?"
This is the easy part for II Productions; the hard part has been people.  I believe II Productions can throw an event for around $1000.  Most of the expensive items would be borrowed from the community.  Some stuff material goods will have to be purchased.

"What happens if one DJ sells 70 tickets and another only 20 tickets?"
DJs will initially be given 55 tickets (and initially pay $275).  If they sell out and come for more tickets, that's great; II Productions would provide them.  The DJ who sells 20 tickets spins that night before the DJ who sells 70.  There are also many Christian DJs who want a shot at spinning at an event.  II Productions would let one of these new DJs have a chance to spin at the next event in place of the DJs who sold 20 tickets.

"I think your goal of 220 is great...but I question the realism in the region."
Towson (just 10 minutes south of me) has 3 colleges in it.  There are also a ton of public and private high schools all within 5 miles.  The people are there.  The problem has been bringing them to shows.  If the DJs want to lead people in dance worship, their job will have to begin weeks beforehand.  If no one is coming to be led by them, then I debate why I should have them in the lineup.

If everyone wants to just share their talents and fellowship, then I can stick to a house party which requires no business plan.  But if DJs want to spin in a venue to lead a crowd of people in worship; something like the above must occur.

Look,  this is one of the worst plans I've ever heard.  First of all,  no DJ should ever have to pay to play.  If you don't have the finances to do a show,  then don't do the show. 

DJs should never be responsible for promoting an event.  This slops of laziness from where I'm standing.  Promotion is the responsibility of the...umm...promoter.  If a DJ wants to help out,  that's okay.  However,  this is not hte responsibility of the DJ.

Any DJ that paid to play this event would lose money.  In theory,  each DJ would have to sell 55 tickets to get their money back...But wait!  The most a DJ can make back off direct ticket sales is 40%...So for each $5 ticket a DJ sells,  they only get $2 of each ticket sold.  Looking at it that way,  each DJ would have to sell around 115 tickets to get their money back.

This isn't even factoring in the cost of renting a system (Around $500),  lights(Another $500),  promotional materials($around 300),  and other miscellaneous expenses added in.

This plan gets a resounding NO.

Oneel: Thanks for taking the time to add your thoughts.  What's your background in the Christian Dance scene?  Wow, one of the worst plans ever?  I knew it was aggressive but I didn't think it was that bad.   
I'm sorry if it sound lazy; I have not had that reputation from the previous events I've thrown.  But you make a good point, as DJs who don't know II Productions or my personal past of promoting may feel the same way.  I'll keep that in mind. 

I have to disagree about DJs having a responsibility to promote; as all DJs have to do that today: usually by name though.  e.g., I use to go to a show if I saw "Frankie Bones" was spinning, because his name alone will pull me in.  No one here on Tastyfresh (yet) has a name that will bring people in.  I feel it's an unfair expectation for an unknown DJ to show up and expect a crowd.  You get around this in the secular scene by having a headliner.  In the Christian scene no headliners are big enough to make that sort of draw with the exception of Moby.  I witnessed this when I went to Club Worship 2 months ago, when they were awesome enough to spend the $$$ to bring in Andy Hunter.  It was a great show, fantastic fellowship, but I'd say the crowd was only 20%-30% above previous times I attended.

Until this changes, some other model (maybe not the one I proposed above, but something close) needs to occur; or volunteer Christian dance promoters (is anyone getting paid full time to do this?) are going to continue to throw low attendance events. 

If you have some suggestions, please share them.  I don't mind the criticism, but would love to hear some alternatives that you believe (or have seen to be) successful. 

Fitzpatrick: I don't understand your quoting my text and comment.

My thoughts:

A DJ with a reputation to bring in a crowd, well, they're going to expect to hop-in and be paid.  That's a given.

I do believe that it's a valid point that if you're a DJ of no report, then you can't really expect the bacon to be served free.  Part of the problem as I see it, is that there is not a strong scene and next to no radio station support.

You could pull this off in say Columbus, OH where you have RadioU and can advertise and promote.

The truth, in most scenes an opening act (band or DJ) is lucky to be paid. Often they're just priveledged to play. Your resident performers usually get a small tip. And any out of town, tour members, headliners get door percentages and/or stipend payment.

**********************

For myself, I find to have an event break even I need a budget of about $500 + venue cost.  Which equates to about 100 attendees @ $5, or 50 attendees @ $10 if venue is free.

That's what it takes for me have support materials, travel costs, tips for the DJs, security, food for set-up crew, etc.

4xDJ @$50 tip = $200
Security = $50-$150
Food = $50 pizza for crew & DJs
Flyers = $100 (if someone designs the flyer)
Misc. = $50-150 (remember you need seed money to buy glow sticks, snacks, water, replacement bulbs, etc. if you plan on selling such stuff)

I can do events for that because I can bring in all the gear myself. (Except Turntables, but usually one of the DJ's can supply those). My big issue is I get burned out if there's not a good support crew. I love doing the events. I love music. I love people. I love DJ'ing.  But if I've got to load up a ton of equipment (literally). Then unload. Set it up. Then get dressed for my show. Then sometimes after midnight it's take down. Pack everything back up. Load it into the trailer and drive and hour or more home.  The end result is one beat Saj. *lol*  That said. I've done some events where they helped me load up. Helped me setup and take down. And even had 1 or 2 guys in the area follow me home to unload. Or swing by the next day to unload.  Those are the best. I walk away tired...but not fatigued and exhausted to the point of death....and we having had a good time.

***********************

So how can we make your idea work?  Perhaps a different tack.  As has already been brought up, most DJ's expect the promoter to promote the event, pay them money to play, spin their tracks, and be done.  But reality is that is not working for our scene...not in most places.

So what to do?

Why not nix the whole promoter concept. Kill that expectation.  And go for a "DJ Co-Op".  Then the DJs involved would understand that they are the promoters.  Don't do it as a pay to play. Rather, set aside a financial priority budget.

EXAMPLE:
$xxx Venue
$xxx Sound System & Lighting
$xxx Flyers & Promotional Materials
$xxx Security
 $xx Food for Crew and DJs (I am of the opinion, even if I can't pay you, I should at least feed you!)
$xxx DJ stipend $xxx Budget Restoration
$xxx DJ tips

That is the priority of payment. As each item is covered you move down to the next item until the $$$ runs out.

Say a church says you can use the youth barn. Hey cool.  We just saved a few hundred dollars on renting a facility. However, just cause they let you use the venue doesn't mean you should put a $0 there.  It might be nice to tithe a percentage of profits if the profits are good. Or simply say hey, we'll give them approx $50 as a thank you offering. Or maybe afterall all is done you tithe them 10% of the net profits. And you write the church a check for $35. 

Then you get to the next priority...sound & lighting.  Now, renting this could equate to hundreds of dollars. More if you're going hog-wild. So that cost has to be cleared first.  But let's say someone has a sound system. And maybe someone else owns lighting. Or one and the both.  Even if you save $500 on the budget. You said aside a tip.  Say $50 for sound and $50 for lighting. Which from my personal experience about covers gas and a roady toady.

Flyers and promotional materials. Find out how many you want to print. Truth be told, I think we often print more than we need. Bust sometimes there is little difference in cost between 500 and 5,000. If you are planning on multiple events. Consider a generic card design that can be re-used. Perhaps by simply printing another label with date/etc to post over the spot.  Or leaving a spot blank and using clear labels to apply time/location.  This makes it more economical.  See what in-house talent you have. Frankly, there are enough people decent with design that it's best to go in-house than to pay a designer boku bucks for a flyer.  Determine your budget. It's pretty fixed on this usually being $x for xxx flyers and + S&H.

Next security.  Now, this may be $150 for an officer.  Or you might do it in-house. Especially if you have anyone with some experience in security. Even still...you need resources. Flashlights (good, bright ones), radios (at least the cheap 2-way Walgreens kind) and it helps alot to have some way to make your security people stand out. People listen/obey more when they KNOW it's security and not just another club goer telling them to quit goofing around. So be it a rental service or in-house. You'll need some budget. In-house requires volunteers, training, and some equipment. The good thing about in-house is once you've got all the equipment your costs pretty much cease except for man-power.

Food, look the people who help with set-up really make a difference.  Having a crew of 10-20 faithfuls who help set up sound, lighting, sell tickets and concessions, do security, these people are invaluable. They are what make events sustainable and not one time occurences.  So buy some cheap grody pizza. You know the $20 for 3 large cheese deals. (Yeah, if you're nice you can splurge and order a few with pepperoni but that's an extra.) And buy few  big 3 liter 99 cent generic sodas.  Your crew feels good cause they're fed. And you fed them, they feel more a part of things as well. You'll be out about $50 but you'll have a happier crew who will feel more like they're part of the team. And that there isn't some elitism on the part of the DJs.  Nothing used to irk me as much as when a church I used to go to would get pizza for the worship team practice.  So, I and others would be doing the prep for the food/cafe afterwards and clean-up of dishes, etc. Others would be working. But no pizza for them. It created a feeling of elitism.  Which is wrong. Scripture specifically decries this behavior in the Book of Revelation when it criticizes the doctrine of the nicolaitans (which translates into "Lording over the laity"). We are all supposed to be brothers and sisters, we have diversity of gifts and talents but none of us is to be Lord or master over the other.

Okay, now that all the immediate needs are covered, the crew and DJs are fed.  The event has concluded and we've made $xxx from ticket and concession sales as net profit.  Time to dole out DJ stipends.  (Really, simply hey, we're not trying to profit ourselves. It's clear we had x people @ $x/ticket. The event didn't really make much profit but we're going to try to share what we can, and maybe give you enough for gas.  So to all the resident/local DJs who live 15 minutes away here's $25.  To the two visiting guest DJs we want to give you guys a little bit more thanks so here $50 for each of you.  And we're also giving DJ Joe $50 because although he's one of our resident DJs. He drives 4-6 hours each way every month to help out. So that will hopefully help with the extra cost of gas and thank you for coming from so far away.

Well, after all that we are left with $160.  This is our "budget restoration". We found ourselves a venue, so and so is providing us sound & lighting. We bought radios, flash lights, etc.  We're going to spend $40 on a few security vests.  And the rest will cover the cost of flyers for the next event.

EVENT 2 occurs. Except this time. We already had flyers and security needs paid from last event.  This time we wound up with $280. The next time bombs...who's stupid idea was it to do a show on 4th of July weekend?  But hey, we had some surplus and we were still able to give all the DJs a bit.  The 4th event we go into with about $120.  We have a good crowd and make about $380.  We find ourselves with about $500, enough to fully pay the next event. Hey let's do a bigger event near Halloween weekend. We'll sent promo flyers to local churches that this is an alternative christian organized party. Encouraged people to bring unsaved friends.  We'll buy a GameCube and raffle it off!  The turn out was great. We actually got some support from a few local churches who's youth groups came out en masse. Got some positive feedback...and best of all we did really well on concessions. So this time we're giving all the DJ's double and having pepperoni pizza next time.

Now, I don't know if such a co-operative like this will work. Perhaps it could, perhaps it won't.  Will DJ's be happy with just a place to spin + gas money. At least until the crowd and balance sheet grow?  I don't know...  This is more akin to the old whaling ships where every crew member received a portion of the profit after the expenses were paid. If there was profit...

I don't think any of us can really look at such events, even as DJs and expect them to pay us $150 bucks per DJ.  At least the above might eventually get to about $50. But realize for 4 DJs that's $200. Which at $5/ticket means 40 people.  So if only 40 people total show, all of that is going to go straight into operating budget. You probably need 80-120 attendees before the DJs in the co-op really see anything from it.

I am curious regarding the thoughts of other DJs on such?

 - Saj

Saj, send me your snail mail addie, and I'll send you my wife's splint and big foam block thing from her carpal tunnel surgery!

Seriously, I'm clueless about all this and have nothing to contribute, but I am reading this thread with interest since I'd like to try some small event(s) out here. Starting REALLY small since I don't have a single other soul to help me at this point.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

WOW! thats hardcore! and i would have to disagree with you. These arent "raves" or "concerts" these events are to have fun and spread the word and love of Christ. WE ARE THE BODY all doing our part for the goal of reaching others. its not about self glory or money... the cash is just an added bonus. I got hired to spin at BoRN AGAiN NYE 2006 (only 2 months away!)... i was and still am all about helping with planning & promotion, i even designed the flyer. its not about us... it about the people were trying to reach.