...and this could be why it's hard for me to find any type of work in my location. 

Regarding boxes. I think we're on slightly different wavelengths here. I understand what you're saying, and if I'm grasping it I think you're right. But you're thinking in broader terms than I was. Also, I'm not sure what I think about actually leaving a box. Generally I've been talking about thinking outside the box, as it relates to problem solving. I'm not talking about getting outside of your social constructs and finding something else to believe in, I'm talking about allowing yourself to think laterally to come up with solutions to problems that your own circumstance might not quickly lead you to. I think there's a difference.

The phrase "think outside the box" arguably originated with the 9 point puzzle (connect all 9 dots in 4 lines). The only way to accomplish it was to extend your lines beyond the frame of the dots... point was there was no frame, you just assumed there was a frame when you saw the 9 dots.
I don't know if that makes a difference to this discussion... I'm just trying to say I can start thinking laterally and "differently" (taking a different approach) to technical and managerial challenges at work, without compromising my morals. In the same way, I think this can be done with social, political and economic problems. My earlier point was that if you got on a place and left America, and settled down in Africa then I'm sure you're ideas about how best to help African's would be challenged. By the same token, if you moved to Finland and saw a booming social democracy with a satisfied population, then perhaps some of your ideas about government and it's appropriate role in people's lives might also be challenged.

I'm not so interested in the outcome of you being challenged because I'm not trying to convert you to anything. I just want you to be challenged. I want to encourage everyone to continually look at different approaches. I for one love change, and I like when my perspectives get re-arranged. I think it's healthy, I don't want to get stuck in one way of thinking, I fear I will stagnate. That's one of the reasons I love these forums and love spiritual discussions

heh... if your not thinking about the broader, long term effects... then you aren't truly thinking outside of the box.


I hear what you are saying, but it's still the same thing. For example, if you have a conflict with a certain someone, you only have one option open... to negotiate. Should that fail or take too long, or not even possible... you then have to think outside the box. Options such as assaulting the person, killing the person or even as simple as blackmailing them all become viable outside of the box thoughts. Blackmail wouldn't be so bad would it? I mean, it's not like anyone would get hurt and are you really compromising or leaving your value system to do that???


See, we're really touching on my beef with group think here now. In Universities and other "forward thinking groups," group think is considered bad and something that should be avoided. To a certain point, I agree. The problem is that you have to include people of opposite positions or thought in the group in order to do this. So... these groups go out off their way to include people like that. Once they are in though, these outside thinkers eventually are excluded from the group for "bad thoughts" or they are by a process of time and stagnation, conformed to the groups overall thought process. So, nobody truly ever stepped out of the box to think.

A direct example would be if a group on a university campus is formed to decide how to curb the growing gun violence on campus nation wide in the US. By default, if the group were truly going to attempt to think outside of the box, they should have one or more pro-gun people in their group. These people would bring stats to the table such as crime rates being lower in areas where gun ownership is encouraged and examples of where guns in the hands of students and faculty have prevented gun violence (yes, there have been recorded incidents of this). The group how ever would never involve such people or try to get them removed from the group once they brought this information forward. Why? Because despite their stated desire to think outside of the box, they are not really willing to do so. Because of that, they will miss a very effective way of preventing violence. Heck, just take down the "this is a gun free zone" sign outside. All that says to someone is "Hey Look! Victims Inside!"

In some cases like this, you want to protect people from the morally reprehensible, but because of a mis-analysis of a problem and other hang-ups, the most effective solution may not even be considered.


Somehow I don't think my opinion that the first thing you need to do is wipe out the murdering bastards who are slaughtering women and children, preventing aid money and resources from getting to those who need it and so on will change. When you are dealing with bullies, the only thing they respect is power. That's been true throughout history.

Once that is done, we can truly start discussing the solutions to poverty, aids and famine. Darfur will be screwed up until we remove those who are killing the weak from power... and the food chain.


Yeah... the problem is... pretty on the outside doesn't mean pretty on the inside. As pointed out, Finland's suicide rates are the 3rd highest in the world. They're also still in the top 20 for all crimes committed. In fact, Finland is the #16 in the number of crime victims, with the US at #15. Finland is also #4 in rape victims. In a country of just 5 million people that is so great on the outside, how can there be so little hope and security on the inside? It's almost like plastic surgery. No matter how much work you put into your body, you're still a 77 year-old woman who's trying not to act your age.


Oh I know. Same here, but I still want you to know that despite what you have seen as someone living in Finland, that it's system of government has not really made anybody that much happier, that it hasn't protected people from becoming victims of crime and it certainly hasn't done much other than make it's population dependent upon the gov't and fooled them to think that it's a good thing


We have a candidate here running for president. His campaign slogan has been "Change." He hasn't yet said once what type of change he will bring. He hasn't really layed out one plan, domestic or otherwise. People attend his rallies and pass out, over whelmed by his lovely words. They all want change. They really do. They just have't once stopped to ask this candidate what changes he wants to bring and taken the time to really think about what kind of changes they really want see.

My blood's boiling a bit... sorry if that previous stuff is intense. All I'm saying Dave is you can't just drop stats like that. You honestly don't know what life is like in Finland. I honestly don't know what life is like in America. If I wanted to find a bunch of American bashing stats I would have no problem, further pointing out the problem of stats and bias.

I don't think you're being fair is all.

OK. That's fair

But Canada and the US are experiencing the same problem; pretty much the whole world is, due to retiring baby boomers. This is not limited to socialism. I don't think enough time has passed to say whether socialism is break-fix.

What you're saying makes sense Dave, but I don't think you should assume you fully understand all the dynamics at play, and that it's all this cut and dry.

You're a wise guy, and you seem very well versed in much of this stuff, which is a credit to you. And you're expanding my understanding, which is appreciated. But people get doctorates on these problems, and still don't have all the answers. You do speak as if you have it all figured out.

lol. At least there's something we can agree on, to an extent.

I just hope there's still some mysteries in life for you Dave. Many topics you discuss you speak as if you know the final word, like there's no other alternative. So... whatever, that's fine, but I just hope you still find things that puzzle you, and that you're not an expert on

It's ending peaceably! woo hoo! So can we have spiritual and political discussions again?

Maybe if there was an option to enable the automatically disabled political/spiritual boards once a person registers to the site. That way, they are viewed with caution and not just anyone comes across them and gets caught off guard. Maybe they can have stricter rules too. If you only allow one post a day per thread, it will give people more time to think about what they are going to say before posting.

I really learned a lot. Thanks for all the input Dave, thepudd, and everyone else.