Depends on your view of history. We may have "taken" the land, but at the same time they kept claiming that they didn't own it. It was the clash of property rights. They didn't understand what that meant until we came. So... what should we have done? It flat out wasn't a good situation. The solution never would have been ideal.


Totally agree. Often times we Americans don't know what it is to truly suffer or simply go without. It's a huge problem here. I'd challenge the gift stat though, but your point about African Christians is correct.


Well, the first stat is that 20% of the church supplies 80% of the money the church takes in. That's consistent stat. Now, what's your definition of "stays in the church" is that money going to the church's ministries or are they just hording it? What about paying their bills? All of that cuts into the offering. Realistically, 70% isn't that bad. My church's budget for example is about $1,000,000 a year. So, based on that, we're still sending out $600,000. Every year I get to vote on the budget and I can review an explanation of it. I never see anything in it that is really out of line. Maybe I just go to an awesome church, after all, we have started several churches in Russia, a deaf church, at least 2 other local churches and help out with several other ministries and mission trips around the world. We're also looking at getting involved with Angel Food Ministries now too.



Exactly. We'd live totally differently, but then again... some might be fairly close to that now.  If we could just turn that 20/80 rule around, that would make a HUGE difference. What if 50% of the church gave 50% of the budget

Me and Pat D just helped out my friend Janay with a birthday party in Long Beach. She was throwing a surprise birthday party for her step mom at the salon she owns. It was very cool to see her whole family and friends celebrate the life of this lady. She spent so much money on everything and truly loves her step mom like her own mother. They are so much more encouraging and excited about God than white people. They had a time in the middle of the party, where they had her stand in the middle of everyone and people would come up to the microphone and tell her how much she has blessed their lives. Later, we got in a circle and prayed for her and her husband. I've never seen anything like that at any of my white friend's or families birthday parties. At a lot of the white churches I go to, God seems to be more of a side thing added onto their life to give them some kind of tradition even though they seem more educated about the bible. From what I've seen from the black gospel communities, even though they may not do everything just as the bible says, God is everything to them and the joy and happiness in their life. It's rare to see a person like that at many of the predominantly white churches I've been to. I'm speaking for California again. I'm not sure about the other states.

Do you really believe this? Maybe for most people this is true, but there are true innovators out there man. People who create new social concepts, new ideals and new structures. People whose ideas about things fundamentally change the way we do things, the way we think.

And even if you're right, that doens't make our boxes acceptable, or mean we should become complacent. I will fight till the day I die to try and think outside whatever box I am in, to challenge the norms and to "not go gently into that good night".

Kissinger said it best on that epsiode of Futurama when he said, "This is not a productive area for discussion." 

I was just looking for an excuse to use my Kissinger voice while typing. 

Actually, yes, because eventually when you step outside of ALL the boxes, and I do mean every last one of them, then you won't have any morals at all. Everything will be acceptable and open to you to do.

As far as the people you're talking about, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Engles, Castro, Mao... they all thought way outside of the box and created new social concepts. In the last 100 years, over 100 million people have been killed by the ideas they put into effect.


What if the box you are in is the Truth and you step out of it? Was that a good thing to do? Are you ever going to step out of your Christian box and move to an Islamic one? Both are boxes and both are valid in today's culture. Are you saying that you would fight against the Christian box?

Of course they are. They both come from the same mind right? Take pornography for example. Clearly it is immoral and clearly there is also a case to call it art... even when not tastefully done. Like it or not, porn can be considered art depending on the definition of art. The most basic definition is "a medium applied to a surface." There really isn't any more to it. Any man-made image or construct could be considered art and therefore creative. As you've seen in films like the matrix and 300, there is a certain "art" in the presentation of death. How in the world could you not see a relationship between creative thought and morality?

All my life I've studied art and I've kept up with the whole "out of the box" philosophy for at least half of my life. Trust me, creativity and morals are connected. Criminals have to think creatively to keep from being caught. Politicians have to think creatively to screw us over... well... some still try to. Communism was just an example. I wasn't saying you said it was right. It's also a fairly clear example of how a sexist and lazy man (marx) could think of a philosophy that later on could be exploited by others to control people and make them believe that the government is God or at least god-like. It's all about thinking creatively and it's all about morals.

No, that all depends on which box you enter once you leave the one you are in. Once you step outside of ALL the boxes... then you have nothing to hold you back in any area of your life. Once you are there, nothing matters and you do whatever you please. It will either repulse you and you'll retreat back into the boxes again or you will get lost in the filth.

Just remember, every time you step outside of the box, you are in reality stepping into a different, usually bigger box.