Yeah, don't get me wrong, I am far from being a proponent of socialized medicine or anything like that.  I've heard of how long it takes to get a chest x-ray in Canada (from a Canadian).  It's nice to be able to get one tomorrow if you need one.  It would also be nice, though, to at least be able to know how that's going to cost you in the end.  You can ask, but they'll tell it's a $300 charge.  They don't tell you that's just what the radiology facility charges, not including the radiologist's reading fee, or any fees incurred by your own physician for writing the order for the x-ray or giving his/her own opinion in writing in addition to the radiologist's interpretation of the films.  All those fees are usually kept secret from the patient even if he/she asks.  There's simply no way to budget for healthcare costs in the U.S.

And, pudd, we have issues similar to that in our university system, too.  I have never personally attended a university, but I have many friends who have (so this is 2nd hand).  We have a university here in Florida called UCF (University of Central Florida).  They are also known amongst students and locals as "U Can't Finish", a reputation earned by throwing as many roadblocks in potential graduates' way as possible to extend their education into the next semester, and then the semester after that, and the semester after that, as much as possible.  Of course, there is no proof that some faculty-level conspiracy is going on or anything like that, but it does seem weird that almost all of the students I've known who have gone there have had unexpected roadblocks to graduating suddenly pop up out of nowhere when they get to their last semester (or what should be their last semester), and suddenly their well-planned, well-advised, staff-approved four year plan gets drug out another semester or two, with usually only a class or two being taken during that last leg.

That's not entirely fair Davo. You've pointed out Enron and a housing crisis, which are documented failures/problems, and looped them in with socialism in general. Your analogy would hold more credence if you specified a problem with socialism, like Enron was a risk with capitalism.

And stealing from the rich to give to the poor... that sounds a lot like fear mongering. No one is being stolen from in this country. People are free to leave and go and work in any other EU nation at a moments notice without requiring any paperwork/VISAs, etc. Not to mention the possibility of moving beyond the EU. And the fact is, as I've stated before, and it seems many of you have a hard time believing, is that Finns are happy with their government. I hardly think the word stealing is appropriate.

There are plenty of more intelligent, well founded problems with socialism that you could point out

You'll never be able to understand the benefits, when you're still thinking in terms of individualistic fair. That's the first idea you've got to get rid of. The socialist concept is fundamentally different from the individual rights concept that you're putting everything within. Honestly. Listen to me for a moment. Stop filtering everything I'm saying by what you understand socialism to be... and I know you're doing this by your comments like "Waiting 3 years for an operation... Having to go to Mexico for a CAT scan". If you honestly knew... you wouldn't make those comments.



This is the reason I've encouraged you all to experience some of the rest of and the world and concepts therein. I never thought anything much of socialism until I arrived in Finland and found everyone thinks about things differently. The ideas of everyone sharing, and wealthy providing for the poor permeates all levels of society. Even corporations and banks are entirely different; you don't have to "worry" about holding onto your wallet in s sense, because people/companies are NOT out to get your money.

I don't care if you buy into socialism, but I care that you don't educate yourselves on exactly what I'm talking about. I'm working on understanding the American dream better... I really am. I bought the history books But I feel no reciprocation at all, all I hear from you is the propaganda I've heard spouted from American media. I'm sorry... it's true. I know you're all intelligent, free thinking people, which is why I'm pushing this because I'm hearing uneducated comments. (This is not to say everything in this thread is uneducated. Far from it. I'm just saying there's been plenty that's said that falls into the non-educated category, enough for me to worry that you don't honestly know at all what I'm talking about.)

Pudd, Davo and I both understand what you are talking about and we fundamentally disagree with it. It has nothing to do with us "experiencing it" or not. We are currently experiencing it on various levels and heading further down the road TO what you love. It's simply not the direction that can be supported effectively for 300 million people and not even 3 million for very long and by very long, I mean a thousands or more. Capitalism and a free market though, can and has to varying degrees.

But I believe what you are experiencing is NOT like what I'm experiencing here. I could be wrong... I acknowledge that. It's just that everything I've heard and seen about socialism in North America is nothing like what I am experiencing here. That's been my point.


My opinion, is that that remains to be seen. But I'll read your history books, maybe I'll be challenged. I like being challenged.


Fair enough


I like the sound of that. But I hope for your own family's sake that you develop fulfilling relationships with like-minded individuals, so your community can grow and develop and be further enriched, with Christ at the centre

I think it is interesting that capitalism and socialist communism share in ideas birthed from Kant's philosophy yet ended up on opposite poles.  We think we are better because we are still standing but maybe we are just picking up speed coming upon a higher cliff with no brakes...

lol. Simple faith. I like it.

The only thing that reminds me of the economy and all these things happening....
is this track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvBGWzHIEo4