Labels, creative commons... holding on to your rights?
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thepudd
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« on: March 26, 2008, 03:30:46 PM »

Something I've been thinking about lately is the importance of labels, and holding onto your music rights... and how that plays into marketing and so on. I'm a big fan of open source software, and I love when people take the open source initiatives into other areas... but I love it even more when they succeed at it.

Not that these two are open source, but I've been following Trent Reznor and Radiohead's latest antics quite closely. That is the free music... or almost free. And distributed directly. How ripe do you think the market is for this kind of thing?

I'm just starting to create my own music now, and I've toyed with the idea of releasing it all under Creative Commons licensing, or something else where I'd essentially be giving my music and remix rights away for free. I want to create a bunch of awesome tracks over the course of my music career, but mostly as a vehicle to get more gigs. (This is a known dynamic of our industry.) So, if money from tracks wasn't really a concern, do you think this would be a wise approach?

But what about the fact that nobody knows my name... unless Armin and Tiesto start hammering my future tracks (always a good goal). What about starting off licensing all your music, for movies, ads, whatever... to build up a reputation, then eventually cut ties and go out on your own (more akin to what NIN and Radiohead have done)?

There's also U2's approach, who chose to own all the rights to their songs since day 1, and it took them much longer to make money, but now they're making ludricous amounts because of the critical mass, and no one else to pay fees to (obviously they pay fees, but you get my point).
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thepudd
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 03:36:19 PM »

Part of this comes from a lack of really knowing this side of the industry much. But another thought... it seems everyone and their dog are running their own label. Is this because artists just need a corporate entity to sell their music? Or is it they want to retain all the rights, as suggested above, and so they start their own labels for that reason...

Joel, why did you start Dot Dot, and go with Baroque or Aurium?

And then back to distribution... how do you license and arrange that, if you're release music onto one label but hoping another with distribute? I'm sure some of these questions have been discussed here before, so apologies for the double post... but again my perspective is coming from the free and open market. What road blocks do you think someone would face if they planned to give out all their music for free, or for a nominal fee? (Virus has also done this, as most of you are aware.)
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stephen
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 10:43:55 PM »

I think that open source software is always a good start. Some open source programs are even more popular than their proprietary rivals. You stand a better chance of finding out who the lead developer for apache web server is than finding out who the lead developer for Microsoft IIS is.

My point is that free stuff markets itself, and you don't need to do all this promotion mumbo jumbo. On the flip side, you will probably need funding to continue as a producer. => Do some songs for free (if you are so inclined) and do others for $$. The free ones are your promotional tools to sell the ones that aren't ~ just make sure that they're all good, and your best are the ones that cost.

I think I should do something like that, to some extent.
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strobian
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 05:10:27 AM »

I think the radiohead deal backfired big time.  I think they were expecting there fans to pay them a fair rate for there album, when they enabled there "pay as you feel fit" program.  The average person payed some ridculously small amount like .25 if I recall...anyway it was a low number.  It turned out they basically got nothing for there work and I would be surprised if they do it again.  I think Trent Reznor is basically done with his contracts and he has such a fan base that he can sell his album for 5$ or whatever, and when you work with Distro you usually make less than that anyway.  I think its possible in the end he could win and give his product at a better rate to fans, while still making money. 

I think selling music outright is the way to go, if you are just hobbying with your music sure, give it away, but if you want people to take you seriously sell it.  Most people start labels for reasons around being able to be creative and not have to listen to labels make edits with there material, production schedule, getting signed, whatever, but yeah its just part of it.  Its best to put music out on other labels before you launch your own IMO. 
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thepudd
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 10:29:58 AM »

Interesting... I hadn't been watching the news, I didn't know Radiohead had dropped the online model. A pox on them... that's shameful.
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Dave Richards
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2008, 11:22:40 AM »

it may have been billed as for a short time only. That's what I thought anyway.
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strobian
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 01:35:13 PM »

Who said they dropped the online model?  Just letting you know they basically got jacked by their "fans"...   Wink
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 01:50:29 PM »

Who wouldn't jack them? Seriously. Most of their fans probably suffer from wealth envy and think they are entitled to the music.
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thepudd
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 03:01:36 PM »

So I did some more reading, and I had watched Radiohead pretty close when it all started, I was thrilled.

Deal is, they offered "In Rainbows" as a download from their site. Pay what you want, plus a small service fee. Then a month or two later they planned to release a "discbox" for those who wanted the real experience, with CDs and Vinyl included, for like 40$. So you had two options, these were explained from the start.

I can't find it now, but I read somewhere that something like 85% of people paid the minimum, around 1$ for the entire album. Not a big surprise really... but Radiohead still took in 1 - 7 million from that. (Again... this is memory, I concede I could be fudging this, but I remember thinking at the time, WOW, this is good news I think for the industry to move this way).

Anyway... now they've pulled the downloads and are offering everything through conventional methods, Walmart and such. Trent Reznor thinks they're dirtbags for a doing a bait-and-switch.

So, that's a sad ending, in my opinion.

I guess that just leaved Trent being a legend. You know he also started releasing his music under Creative Commons, and encourages everyone to remix it right away.
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stephen
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 05:50:02 PM »

if you release crappy stuff for free then you get a bad reputation.
if you release amazing material for free then you get good publicity but no money.
if you release amazing material on a label then you get some money and some publicity.
but if you release crappy material on a label then you pollute the scene and should stop doing that immediately!
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thepudd
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2008, 05:47:51 AM »

^ haha, fair enough.

Quote
Allowing all music creators 'in' is both exciting and frightening. Some argue that we need subjective gatekeepers as filters. No matter which way you feel about it, there are a few indisputable facts -- control has been taken away from the 'four major labels' and the traditional media outlets. We, the 'masses,' now have access to create, distribute, discover, promote, share and listen to any music. Hopefully access to all of this new music will inspire us, make us think and open doors and minds to new experiences we choose, not what a corporation or media outlet decides we should want."

Article.
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thepudd
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2008, 07:27:58 AM »

Also from that article:

Quote
For administrative reasons, most of the digital stores like iTunes don't deal directly with the artists -- frankly, customer support for millions of bands (or Uncle Larry, who insists he can do the best version of "How Much Is That Doggy In The Window") are not what the digital stores are about. The stores prefer to get the music from music industry middlemen that aggregate music and deal with the administrative headaches (a record label as one example). The way to meaningful distribution has been reduced from "access plus infrastructure" to merely "access."

With the launch of TuneCore (full disclosure here, I am the CEO and founder), for the cost of a six pack and a pizza (around $30), anyone can now literally be their own record label and have the same distribution as any "signed" artist. However, unlike a "signed" artist, this new model allows artists to keep all their rights and receive all the money from the sale of their music via a non-exclusive agreement that can be cancelled at any time, all while having infinite inventory with no up front cost or risk.
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2008, 07:38:44 AM »

You know, one thing that always gets me when people argue about labels and copyrights is that they won't get a good contract or are concerned that they'll be abused. In just about EVERY comparison though, the Big 4 or 5 are cited. The problem with that is in our type of music, EDM, just about every single label is small and independent. In other words, as long as the label is being paid, they really can't afford NOT to pay you or abuse you. It still happens, but those labels won't last.

Yes, they are still businesses. Yes, contracts are still involved that mean you are "signing" away your rights. The thing is, these small labels are EXACTLY who we should be supporting.

For example, if you were to start a label today, you probably wouldn't be any bigger than NDM, Deeplife, Queep or a 100 more labels out there today. That's YOU opening up shop. What evil could YOU do with such little power. You would be fighting just as hard as all the other small labels to get on Beatport. Once on beatport... you just have to prove yourself. The benefit of signing with a Queep or Deeplife though is that they've already fought this battle for you and can allow you to focus on writing more material while they focus on selling it.

Forget the Big 5(4). They don't really mean a thing when we're talking about EDM. Proof? Where were they at WMC this year?
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strobian
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2008, 08:23:50 AM »

You know radiohead still lost money no matter how you look at it.  I think they thought that people are actually fair and concerned.  I understand what they are trying to do, but this stuff can usually only be done after you have been with a major label, not many bands can start off the bat that way and afford the marketing it takes to get there.  There is a payoff and a payee, when you start your not the payee.  It can be done, but Reznor is irritated anyway, I could care less what he thinks really.  He is a brilliant producer but after that very dark individual..
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thepudd
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« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2008, 01:30:13 PM »

So how hard is it to get onto Beatport, iTunes? If your music is excellent? (I don't care to talk about non-excellent music, as it doesn't belong in the world).
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