the state of christianity is pathetic if...
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DJ Souljuice
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« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2008, 09:59:08 PM »

Human condition. We try to control that which we cannot. We cannot control our sin nature. Sin management will get you nowhere. The only one who can control our sin nature is God Himself.

Church leaders have simply 'banned' dancing because it's an easy place for your sin nature to come out. I love dancing. When I was single, it was very exhilarating to make eyes with a hot girl and go dance with her. Even if my version of dancing is limited to the white-boy head-bob and the bump and grind.

You have to defend the church leaders. They are just trying to manage sin. Haven't we all tried to manage sin?

But obviously this castrates our freedom in Christ. While the flag-wavers kind of freak me out, I also have to admit to myself that at least they have found some kind of freedom. Good for them, even if they are cheesy middle-aged women - they have found freedom. If I were to find TRUE freedom in church, I would be dancing, screaming. The risk? I might do something "inappropriate". But I think the church would be better off letting that risk exist, because then at least if sin 'comes out' in you at a service, then you're going to know its there and the accountability is going to be immediate. Instead, we let our sin problems fester and hide and grow, until they come out some other way, like cheating on our spouses, getting addicted to drugs, or looking at pr0n until 4am.

The church needs to be a safe place to sin.

First off, I think scripture has made it clear that we now have power over the sin nature because of the Holy Spirit's presence in our lives. Now that we have been sanctified through the blood of Christ we have the power to say no to sin. Using the "sin nature" excuse will not work on judgement day my friend.

Now, as far as your managing sin point is concerned, I do agree with you there. This is the whole reason that in Romans it states that we are no longer bound to the law, meaning we don't have to watch our every move to make sure we don't slip. He's saying that as long as we live by the Spirit our lives will reflect what the Spirit desires.

I would tend to disagree with you on your following point, simply because the Bible states that the acts of the sinful nature are contrary to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is contrary to the sinful nature. Also, the Bible states that "when 2 or more gather in my name, surely I will be there." If the Spirit is present during a time of worship, you would be incapable of sinning. If you find yourself "slipping into sin" during worship, then I would certainly question who it is you are worshipping. Worship is not designed to make us feel good or enjoy ourselves, it is designed as a way for us to give God the praise He deserves. If dancing is your way of doing that, excellent, then dance! But if you are taking risks on something you feel could potentially be sinful then it would most certainly make sense to avoid it, seeing as this would not bring God glory but bring shame upon his house.

I say this with all respect and love for a brother in Christ, but you had no scriptural evidence for anything you had to say. You can never go wrong with the Word of God, so if you find yourself questioning a "gray area", such as whether or not you can dance in church, then find scripture that can back you up. If you can't find it, then just be safe and avoid it, surely God would not condemn your judgement if you based it on his Word. Just for the record, though, I most certainly think that dancing in church is not in any way sinful. Just as the Bible says, even David danced! The only thing that matters in the end is if God is receiving the glory.
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Matthew Risher
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« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2008, 10:25:36 PM »

I don't think we're really in disagreement, Souljuice. I was speaking strictly on the idea of the "managing sin without God's help" routine. Yes, we have been given the power of Christ through the Holy Spirit's presence. But we have to both be aware of that and accept that for it to manifest. You cannot deny that a portion of the church has not accepted that fact in daily action in their lives. That is the kind of "Godless sin-management" I'm talking about.

It also feels as if you're kind of making a pre-conceived notion about my sin nature, which is fair because of the way I wrote my post. I frequently use myself in a metaphoric sense when I'm trying to make a point, and that doesn't really translate well on a forum where people don't know me or my past. I'm 28 and happily married. But my post was written from a perspective of "looking back" on a moment in my life where I was quite different. I was envisioning a time where I was involved with a large Young Adult ministry at a big church. The ministry was blessed and anointed, but at the time, I was a confused struggling 21-year old trying to find Jesus while dealing with flesh, and there were a lot of pretty girls around that place. Almost like a two-edged sword, you could connect with people of your age and seek God together in a relevant avenue, but you're also coming into direct confrontation with your sin nature. And you're absolutely right - if you're in a worship service and you're not consumed with your Maker, then what are you being consumed by? The band? How good (or bad) it sounds? The cute girl dancing and worshipping up the row? The wierd flag-ladies? Your latest incoming text message? I hope that makes sense. I almost always use my own past as a way of metaphorically sharing an example, but I really didn't expound on that in my earlier post.

I guess my point is: if something is tough for you, DON'T avoid it. If dancing at church draws your eyes away from God, then either DO IT and let someone call you out, or TALK with someone about it. My real point here is not to hide your sin but either expose it or let it be exposed. If we walk in true freedom, our sin will be exposed. If we walk in bondage, we will hide our sin and conceal it away for as long as we can while it poisons us, blinds our eyes and deafens our ears.
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Matthew Risher
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« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2008, 10:26:24 PM »

CRAP THIS IS A SPIRITUAL DISCUSSION NOW I AM GOING TO GET THIS THREAD LOCKED!!!!  Shocked
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DJ Souljuice
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« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2008, 03:45:46 PM »

I don't think we're really in disagreement, Souljuice. I was speaking strictly on the idea of the "managing sin without God's help" routine. Yes, we have been given the power of Christ through the Holy Spirit's presence. But we have to both be aware of that and accept that for it to manifest. You cannot deny that a portion of the church has not accepted that fact in daily action in their lives. That is the kind of "Godless sin-management" I'm talking about.

It also feels as if you're kind of making a pre-conceived notion about my sin nature, which is fair because of the way I wrote my post. I frequently use myself in a metaphoric sense when I'm trying to make a point, and that doesn't really translate well on a forum where people don't know me or my past. I'm 28 and happily married. But my post was written from a perspective of "looking back" on a moment in my life where I was quite different. I was envisioning a time where I was involved with a large Young Adult ministry at a big church. The ministry was blessed and anointed, but at the time, I was a confused struggling 21-year old trying to find Jesus while dealing with flesh, and there were a lot of pretty girls around that place. Almost like a two-edged sword, you could connect with people of your age and seek God together in a relevant avenue, but you're also coming into direct confrontation with your sin nature. And you're absolutely right - if you're in a worship service and you're not consumed with your Maker, then what are you being consumed by? The band? How good (or bad) it sounds? The cute girl dancing and worshipping up the row? The wierd flag-ladies? Your latest incoming text message? I hope that makes sense. I almost always use my own past as a way of metaphorically sharing an example, but I really didn't expound on that in my earlier post.

I guess my point is: if something is tough for you, DON'T avoid it. If dancing at church draws your eyes away from God, then either DO IT and let someone call you out, or TALK with someone about it. My real point here is not to hide your sin but either expose it or let it be exposed. If we walk in true freedom, our sin will be exposed. If we walk in bondage, we will hide our sin and conceal it away for as long as we can while it poisons us, blinds our eyes and deafens our ears.

Apologies for any pre-concieved notions I may have had. Now we're on the same page. I can most certainly agree with all of that. I used to be involved in a youth group that was definitely alive, and probably a good example of what you described. Sometimes we would catch ourselves doing things that you could put into question, but we were alive and well in our relationship with God. It was definitely a great experience. And, as Romans states, we are no longer in bondage to sin, so you're right about that.

I wasn't aware spiritual discussions were not allowed...but this all is relevant to the christian dance music community so it makes sense to talk about it!
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