Lost Season 4 Premiere 1/31: a GLOBAL event
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Matthew Risher
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« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2008, 06:05:01 PM »

My manager and I had a chat about Jack/Aaron/Kate. We agree that the reason Jack is a torn apart alcoholic in the future is because he is torn with guilt over leaving Claire (and the others) behind. This is why he refuses to see Kate on her terms... seeing Aaron would remind him of how he's 'betrayed' everyone else. The Oceanic 6 have obviously LIED to the media about what happened. That's straight up betrayal, no matter how many scary black guys named after the Demon Abbadon have intimidated you. Wink
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« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2008, 06:53:59 PM »

Well, yes...they lied...that's nothing. Now they're even KILLING to protect the other survivors if the FutureFlash from Ben/Sayid can be trusted.
I agree, Jack is racked with guilt about leaving them, and about Kate/Sawyer...but don't think for one minute that he knows about Aaron.
I believe he thinks Kate had Sawyers baby....because she made it a big deal about 'seeing' the baby. She wants Jack to accept the baby regardless of who the father is and doesn't want to let him off the hook by saying it's actually Claire's baby. She needs Jack to accept her past relationship with Sawyer, and letting him know that it's Aaron would mean he doesn't have to deal with that point. At this point, I don't believe he got to find out anything about what transpired between Claire and Kate before they make it off the island. This time travel/warp thing, unfortunately, gives the writers a wide berth as far as creative freedom in developing the rest of the story and explaining away a lot of little problems and annoyances that remain unanswered.

Feel free to disagree or comment further.
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john.christian
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« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2008, 07:25:36 PM »

[...]
I agree, Jack is racked with guilt about leaving them, and about Kate/Sawyer...but don't think for one minute that he knows about Aaron.
I believe he thinks Kate had Sawyers baby....because she made it a big deal about 'seeing' the baby. She wants Jack to accept the baby regardless of who the father is and doesn't want to let him off the hook by saying it's actually Claire's baby. She needs Jack to accept her past relationship with Sawyer, and letting him know that it's Aaron would mean he doesn't have to deal with that point. At this point, I don't believe he got to find out anything about what transpired between Claire and Kate before they make it off the island.

The problem with that theory is that it takes approximately nine months to have a baby. It's already been about three months or more (I don't exactly remember) that they've been on The Island, so Aaron would be at least one-years old in the time that Kate could even plausibly be able to give birth. She would have to pass Aaron as being ridiculously premature and/or having a very overactive pituitary gland. Plus--if we are to assume that she has adapted Claire's story of giving birth on The Island--she'd have to somehow fake giving childbirth in order to convince Jack that it's her child. o_0

This time travel/warp thing, unfortunately, gives the writers a wide berth as far as creative freedom in developing the rest of the story and explaining away a lot of little problems and annoyances that remain unanswered.

Does it? Everything I've seen (so far) greatly implies that they're on a fixed timeline that cannot be changed ("Destiny has a way of course-correcting things"). The only proven exceptions (that I've noticed) is in Desmond delaying of Charlie's death, but ultimately, Charlie still dies as he is destined to be. So anything that a traveler does in the past is already destined to happen (see The Novikov self-consistency principal). In other words, John Calvin was right. Smiley
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« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2008, 08:33:14 AM »

The problem with that theory is that it takes approximately nine months to have a baby. It's already been about three months or more (I don't exactly remember) that they've been on The Island, so Aaron would be at least one-years old in the time that Kate could even plausibly be able to give birth. She would have to pass Aaron as being ridiculously premature and/or having a very overactive pituitary gland. Plus--if we are to assume that she has adapted Claire's story of giving birth on The Island--she'd have to somehow fake giving childbirth in order to convince Jack that it's her child. o_0

Yeah, very good points.

All of these things can be overlooked by the world at large because they don't know what happened on the island, but Jack WAS there and knows Kate was not pregnant.

They also would have came back together from the island with Aaron in tow.

There is no way Jack wouldn't already know it was Aaron if they all came back from the island together.
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Digital Aura
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« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2008, 02:39:56 PM »

Quote
it takes approximately nine months to have a baby. It's already been about three months or more (I don't exactly remember) that they've been on The Island,

All I meant was that TIME PASSES DIFFERENTLY TO PEOPLE ON THE ISLAND. The sun still rises and sets with noon in the middle, but Faraday explains that the passage of time is not the same on this island. If Desmond is popping into the past to effect his present (or is it the future?) then this tends to open a lot of opportunistic creativity to the writers now. Face it, Faraday is obviously doing this time travel stuff too...in the last segment of the episode we see his journal reads "Desmond will be my constant".  Roll Eyes

So... I still see anything possible as far as the whole 9month scenario/Kate's fake pregnancy. Also, why are you already assuming they get off the island together? We don't even know if they are rescued by these 'freighter people'. Perhaps Desmond or Faraday or ? changes something in the past to affect their rescue or ability to get off. That's what I'm talking about 'creative freedom' resulting from this latest episode.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 02:41:50 PM by Digital Aura » Logged

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« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2008, 07:58:34 AM »

Quote from: Digital Aura
TIME PASSES DIFFERENTLY TO PEOPLE ON THE ISLAND.

Yes, time does work differently on the island than it does in the rest of the world.

...or is it a section of space between the island and everything else?  

Either way it's related to the island, and it is a time thang. 

Quote from: Digital Aura
Faraday is obviously doing this time travel stuff too...in the last segment of the episode we see his journal reads "Desmond will be my constant"

Or maybe he's planning on doing Time Travel now that he has his constant? 

Either way, yes, Faraday will be time traveling too. 

What's strange is, Faraday seemed to make it seem that it had to be someone who meant a lot to you.  If it were just anyone in both the past and the future, Desmond could have just used Faraday as he was in both.  It seemed as if it Faraday was not enough, and he had to still find Penny because of his strong love for her.

If Desmond is going to be Faraday's constant as his diary stated, what strong emotional attachment do they share that would make Desmond his constant/anchor?

Quote from: Digital Aura
Why are you already assuming they get off the island together? We don't even know if they are rescued by these 'freighter people'. Perhaps Desmond or Faraday or ? changes something in the past to affect their rescue or ability to get off.

I'm not assuming these freighter people are the ones who rescue them.  It may well be Desmond or Faraday that make it happen some other way, and it doesn't have to be the freighter, it can be a plane, submarine, whatever.

I am assuming they HAVE to get off the island together because of this whole "Oceanic 6" thing, with no other survivors (as far as the world at large knows.)

Maybe they had different helicopter trips to the boat (or whatever they left on) with a slight time differential, but not 9 months, and they didn't pick 3 or 4 of them up and take them home, and then come back months later and get the other 2 or 3.

All 6 came HAD to come back to the world at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 10:28:41 AM by Dancechapel » Logged

john.christian
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« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2008, 06:37:39 PM »

Quote
it takes approximately nine months to have a baby. It's already been about three months or more (I don't exactly remember) that they've been on The Island,

All I meant was that TIME PASSES DIFFERENTLY TO PEOPLE ON THE ISLAND. The sun still rises and sets with noon in the middle, but Faraday explains that the passage of time is not the same on this island. If Desmond is popping into the past to effect his present (or is it the future?) then this tends to open a lot of opportunistic creativity to the writers now.

It's alright for us to have differing theories/opinions. I wasn't trying to disprove you, I was just expressing my doubts based on opposing evidence. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

With that being said, Is Desmond actually altering the Timeline? Like I wrote in my previous post, the previous episodes seem to imply that he is not and that anything that he does--even if it is partially caused by events from the future (a Causality Loop)--still results in the same outcome (ie. Charlie's Death).

This is confirmed by the Production Notes for last weeks episode.

Here's an except (emphasis added by me):
Quote
Lost's writer-producers enjoy science fiction themes such as time-travel; however, they were careful not to create a temporal paradox. The ground rules for time-travel in the series are outlined by Ms. Hawking (Fionnuala Flanagan) in "Flashes Before Your Eyes". When a character time-travels, the circumstances of the past, present and future are not dramatically changed.[5] Had these rules not been established, the writers feared that viewers would lose interest because the stakes of the characters would be lessened.[6] The writers hoped that "The Constant" would further establish that there are no parallel universes or alternate realities.

Face it, Faraday is obviously doing this time travel stuff too...in the last segment of the episode we see his journal reads "Desmond will be my constant".  Roll Eyes

Yes, I noticed that too. I wonder if he has and if it relates to how much more calm & composed he is in the past; Naomi's referring to him as a "Headcase" in the Second episode "Confirmed Dead"; or the cardgame he was playing with Charlotte.

Check out the previews and read the synopses to this weeks episode:

Preview 1
Preview 2

Quote
The Other Woman
Thu March 6 9/8c

Juliet receives an unwelcome visit from someone from her past and is given orders to track down Charlotte and Faraday in order to stop them from completing their mission -- by any means necessary. Meanwhile, Ben offers Locke an enticing deal.

Perhaps the note in Daniel's journal is in case "Anything goes wrong" with his upcoming mission with Charlotte.

So... I still see anything possible as far as the whole 9month scenario/Kate's fake pregnancy. Also, why are you already assuming they get off the island together? We don't even know if they are rescued by these 'freighter people'. Perhaps Desmond or Faraday or ? changes something in the past to affect their rescue or ability to get off. That's what I'm talking about 'creative freedom' resulting from this latest episode.

I hope your not offended but I hope that you're wrong about the so-called "creative freedom." That's a cheap trick that writers use when they're lazy and have run out of ideas. It's akin to when Soap-Opera's "resolve" a plot by stating that "It was all a dream."
More recently, this trick has been applied to the comic-book "Amazing Spider-man" where Peter Parker/Spider-man's ENTIRE relationship with Mary Jane has been erased by the use of "Magic" via a deal they made with the Devil Mephistos in order to save Aunt May who has been near-death for the approximately 50th time.  hurt
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Carey
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« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2008, 08:50:13 AM »

Digital Aura - I revised my post a bit, and I hope you aren't offended with me either, I'm just disagreeing with your theory based on my own thoughts, but I obviously have no more idea than anyone else.

We'll find out more tonight!

Quote from: john.christian
More recently, this trick has been applied to the comic-book "Amazing Spider-man" where Peter Parker/Spider-man's ENTIRE relationship with Mary Jane has been erased by the use of "Magic" via a deal they made with the Devil Mephistos in order to save Aunt May who has been near-death for the approximately 50th time.  hurt

Yeah, this whole Mephisto thing is gay!

I'm only going to read Ultimate Spiderman regularly now, it's much more realistic.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 10:25:49 AM by Dancechapel » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2008, 11:43:33 AM »

I think that last week's episode showed that time on the island and away from the island passes the same. So, Carey's donut theory of a time-space distortion surrounding the island would seem to have some merit.

Sayid isn't surprised to find out that it's Christmas Eve of 2004 when he sees the calendar on the freighter. At first, I thought that perhaps the crew had put that up for Sayid and Desmond's benefit--to keep them from finding out that it's really 2008 in the rest of the world. However, that can't be because Desmond told Penny that he'll call her on December 24, 2004. Unless he just happened to be calling around Christmas time of a later year and Penny just didn't say "I thought you were going to call me X years ago", it seems that it is in fact Dec 24, 2004 in Penny's part of the world too.
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john.christian
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« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2008, 12:21:31 PM »

Digital Aura - I revised my post a bit, and I hope you aren't offended with me either, I'm just disagreeing with your theory based on my own thoughts, but I obviously have no more idea than anyone else.

We'll find out more tonight!

Quote from: john.christian
More recently, this trick has been applied to the comic-book "Amazing Spider-man" where Peter Parker/Spider-man's ENTIRE relationship with Mary Jane has been erased by the use of "Magic" via a deal they made with the Devil Mephistos in order to save Aunt May who has been near-death for the approximately 50th time.  hurt

Yeah, this whole Mephisto thing is gay!

The whole One More Day debacle has effectively stopped me from buying any Mainstream Spidey book--which would mean just the one Mainstream book (Amazing Spider-man).

I'm only going to read Ultimate Spiderman regularly now, it's much more realistic.

Well, more believable, at least. Symbiotes, Clones and Mutants withstanding. Wink

I still have only read a few Ultimate Spidey books. I'm one of those guys who likes to read things from the beginning. So the Ultimate Spider-man Trade-Paperbacks are on my list of things to read, but not necessarily at the top of my list of expenses.

In addition to that, Joe Quesada himself (EIC of Marvel and the man who erased SM/MJ's marriage from existence)--ironically enough--"suggested that fans angered by the controversial “One More Day” storyline – in which Spider-Man’s marriage to Mary Jane was retroactively dissolved -- and looking to read about a happily married Peter and MJ should turn their attention to “Amazing Spider-Girl.

I think that last week's episode showed that time on the island and away from the island passes the same. So, Carey's donut theory of a time-space distortion surrounding the island would seem to have some merit.

Sayid isn't surprised to find out that it's Christmas Eve of 2004 when he sees the calendar on the freighter. At first, I thought that perhaps the crew had put that up for Sayid and Desmond's benefit--to keep them from finding out that it's really 2008 in the rest of the world. However, that can't be because Desmond told Penny that he'll call her on December 24, 2004. Unless he just happened to be calling around Christmas time of a later year and Penny just didn't say "I thought you were going to call me X years ago", it seems that it is in fact Dec 24, 2004 in Penny's part of the world too.

I noticed that too. Hmm, I wonder if the time-dilation between The Island and the rest of the World is in constant stability. Or would the differences in time be exponentially greater if Daniel ran his test a second time? smiley25
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Carey
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« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2008, 01:18:46 PM »

I don't find the Amazing Spidergirl to be all that good though.

Ultimate is very very good.  You might be able to check it out in trade paperback from your local library.  It's available at mine.

Back to Lost...

Great observation on 2004 GLM!

I think there are still a lot of questions to be answered on the time distortion, we will see.

I wonder if it's always been there, or just since the Electromagnetic explosion?

Also, this is only one of the island's secrets, there are so many!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 02:46:28 PM by Dancechapel » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2008, 10:56:10 AM »

Guys...its a tv show...I'm not offended in the least...my use of CAPS was only to stress the important part of the sentence. i wasn't raising my voice... laugh

Ultimately, I don't disagree with any of you. Faraday said "you can't change the future". But the future dictates what they WILL HAVE TO DO in the past (like training the mouse to do the maze). Faraday says, "I haven't taught her to do that yet! I was going to teach her this afternoon".
I do disagree about the baby. For some reason I do think somehow Jacks reaction to Kate and 'the baby' leads us to believe he DOESN'T KNOW. Kate didn't refer to the baby as Aaron. In fact, she told the lawyer point blank that she didn't want "her son" to be involved. Was if for his protection? Or the protection of her secret?

Next week we find out who the last of the Oceanic 6 is. Sun? The preview suggested she needed to leave the island in order to have her baby.

So..   1/ Jack 2/ Kate 3/ Hurley 4/ Sayid 5/ ??  6/ Sun??   (Did I miss something? Unless next week they reveal TWO more people then we are still short somehow. Aaron doesn't count...he wasn't on the Oceanic manifest, nor was Ben). Or do you think they include Ben? Theories? Conspiracies?

More importantly....WHO DOES BEN HAVE ON THAT BOAT!? (you'd better sit down for this he said...NOOOO! How mean to leave us hangin!!LOL) I think the person on the boat is ... BEN! oOoOoOh. Time travel!!  LOL...actually I have no clue.
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« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2008, 11:54:26 AM »

Guys...its a tv show...I'm not offended in the least...my use of CAPS was only to stress the important part of the sentence. i wasn't raising my voice... laugh

We'll have to teach you how to use italics. laugh
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« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2008, 12:01:04 PM »

So..   1/ Jack 2/ Kate 3/ Hurley 4/ Sayid 5/ ??  6/ Sun??   (Did I miss something? Unless next week they reveal TWO more people then we are still short somehow. Aaron doesn't count...he wasn't on the Oceanic manifest, nor was Ben). Or do you think they include Ben? Theories? Conspiracies?
Quote

Yeah. I wondered about that too.

More importantly....WHO DOES BEN HAVE ON THAT BOAT!? (you'd better sit down for this he said...NOOOO! How mean to leave us hangin!!LOL) I think the person on the boat is ... BEN! oOoOoOh. Time travel!!  LOL...actually I have no clue.

I'm wondering if maybe this is where Michael re-enters the plot. But I wouldn't think that would be sufficient for the "you better sit down" comment.

Also, part of the synopsis from tvguide.com says "Sayid and Desmond begin to get an idea of the freighter crew's mission when they meet the ship's captain." Could that be Penny's dad?
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Two people drift in a lifeboat. One says, "I see an island. Our best chance is to go ashore, build a shelter, and await rescue." The others says, "No, we must go farther out to sea and hope to find the shipping lanes." Unable to agree, the two fight, the lifeboat capsizes, and they drown.
john.christian
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« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2008, 02:22:35 PM »

Guys...its a tv show...I'm not offended in the least...my use of CAPS was only to stress the important part of the sentence. i wasn't raising my voice... laugh

We'll have to teach you how to use italics. laugh

Tastyfresh Lessons in "Netiquette." Smiley

Ultimately, I don't disagree with any of you. Faraday said "you can't change the future". But the future dictates what they WILL HAVE TO DO in the past (like training the mouse to do the maze). Faraday says, "I haven't taught her to do that yet! I was going to teach her this afternoon".

It's interesting that you point that out since most of the episodes contain Flashforwards instead of Flashbacks.
What the characters do in the "future" dictates what they will do in the "present." That's a good observation.

I do disagree about the baby. For some reason I do think somehow Jacks reaction to Kate and 'the baby' leads us to believe he DOESN'T KNOW. Kate didn't refer to the baby as Aaron. In fact, she told the lawyer point blank that she didn't want "her son" to be involved. Was if for his protection? Or the protection of her secret?

She does call him Aaron at the very end of that episode. Though in the few times that I watched it, it sounded like she was saying Eric, but I think there was something wrong with the sound on my computer is why. :/

But I think know where you're getting at: She could have given him another name to be used in public.

So..   1/ Jack 2/ Kate 3/ Hurley 4/ Sayid 5/ ??  6/ Sun??   (Did I miss something? Unless next week they reveal TWO more people then we are still short somehow. Aaron doesn't count...he wasn't on the Oceanic manifest, nor was Ben). Or do you think they include Ben? Theories? Conspiracies?

Jin might be a likely choice.

More importantly....WHO DOES BEN HAVE ON THAT BOAT!? (you'd better sit down for this he said...NOOOO! How mean to leave us hangin!!LOL) I think the person on the boat is ... BEN! oOoOoOh. Time travel!!  LOL...actually I have no clue.

I'm wondering if maybe this is where Michael re-enters the plot. But I wouldn't think that would be sufficient for the "you better sit down" comment.

Also, part of the synopsis from tvguide.com says "Sayid and Desmond begin to get an idea of the freighter crew's mission when they meet the ship's captain." Could that be Penny's dad?

Wow. I never even thought of The Mole possibly being Michael. I did figured it was someone Locke knows (or knew); Michael fits that category. One thing to keep in mind though, is that Michael's name would be on the flight-manifest along with everyone else's, so they might see him coming. And if Michael is the one on the boat, would Walt be on with him?

Since we know that it is someone Locke (in particular) knows, I wonder, could it be his Ex-Wife?


Wow! The connections just grow deeper and deeper in this series.
So according to Ben, Charles Widmore is after The Island so that he can exploit it. I was just a little disappointed by this because I was hoping that it was DHARMA trying to reclaim it's Island, but Widmore fits well into this.
This explains why The Maxwell Group--a subsidiary of Widmore Corp., as seen in the Find815 game--was looking for The Black Rock; and possibly how Penelope knows of The Island.

I know everyone's been focused on the Mythology of LOST, and as much as that interest me, I'm equally intrigued by the drama and character-pieces that are produced in this series. I'm very glad that Juliet finally expressed her feeling towards Jack--even though, if the Flashforwards are any indication, there relationship may not last long--I think he should be with her and her, him. They're a better match, in my opinion.

This was a great Flashback Episode. I never realized Ben could be so obsessive.

That's all I'll say for now.

This is still the first of three more seasons, so DHARMA could still show up later. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the new balance between the Mythology and Character-Pieces. And I look forward to the "War between Benjamin Linus and Widmore." Smiley
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