to the unbeleiver what is the difference between christian and secular music? not just with EDM,but screamo,hardcore all of the edgy genres.  if the artist isn't saying anything about faith or God how do they know that it is done by a christian artist. i'm not against instrumentals i just want to know how are ppl supposed to tell the difference.  I'm not singling anyone out i hope, i'm just curious as to what others think about this.

well for the most part, lyrics.  Anything with lyrical content, you can tell if its christian or not.

For instrumentals, which is most of dance music, maybe the artist that wrote it is christian and also, I can tell the difference in the overall atmosphere of the track by non and christian most of the time.

I can already tell you we've had debates on instrumentals before and I just look at non-vocal tracks a way to bridge the gap and be played cross platformed plus atmosphere takes in big account if its instrumental.

i guess the real question is how does the listener get any message out of it if it has no vocal message. not just singing but phrase samples spoken word something.

well for some insight on the subject, here's a thread where your question has been asked before:

looking for some Christian Mixes w/lyrics(message) (http://www.tastyfresh.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,108/topic,4287.msg46845#msg46845)

Course, it turned into a debate and became a headache for some.  To answer your question, you don't hear a message without lyrics.  Now for another insight, I'll just tell it to ya straight, most of the events I played before in the past usually encompassed a DJ, then a band, then a speaker and a message or it was blatantly obvious it was in a christian venue and it was cool to play instrumentals.  If you're a DJ and the event won't have a speaker or message presented, then it would be good to play some vocal tracks.

My view is both are good and beneficial, vocal and non-vocal.  When I started DJing, I had no clue there was christian EDM, so using some discernment I scouted tracks with just good, clean music and fun to play.  Found tastyfresh and NSoul and found tracks talking about God.

Andy Hunter once talked about you can control the atmosphere of a club by what type of music you play and people have told his wife about how they notice something different about him when he is playing.  This leads to conversations of faith to non-believers and another good way to share the gospel.

thats just my view of it.

Its a good questions

One thought i have about this is the passage in james that says show love with actions rather than words. Which to me also says that words are not the only way to communicate the things of God. I heard some one say recently about chrisitan doctors. do we expect them to be preachiing at every patient they meet and also .. whilst many doctors will believe in healing through prayer they will still see what part they can do to help someone to get better.

So yes the message is important but isnt worth thinking that there are many ways to communicate the message?

excellent! i feel the same way. there is a time and place for everything. i just wanted to know if there were those that felt the same way. now as a producer i put some sort of biblical, Godly, or truthfull lyrical message in all my tracks. be it samples, or whatever. i guess it just bothers me when i here these big name christian artists say they don't want to be considered a christian artist. i think what are they doing for?  ya feel me?

same here, vicar.

personally, reason I don't have vocals in my tracks are one of three:

1. I can't sing a lick.
2. Not too many vocalists around that are accessible for my projects.
3. Using samples off sites, other songs, etc., in my songs have to deal with copyrights.

I just consider myself as a christian writing trance and drum n bass.

spoken word...?  record your own samples  soundforge  lots of fx  pitch it down an octave for a growlly drum n bass feel   i can't sing either.

AB,

Certainly, the argument has been made to me over and over that music, by virtue of its boundless nature and appeal to many diverse tastes, cannot be pigeonholed by any one belief or religion. I wouldn’t be so ignorant to suggest that my music can only be relevant or appreciated by other Christians. Yet, I tire of the bad language and offensive content that I must listen to each and every time I turn on the radio. I find that the world has been so desensitized by secular ideals and immoral principles that there is no longer the desire, much less the ability, to do anything about it. For the most part, even Christians sit like dumb mutes in front of their stereos being force-fed notions like “love is a feeling that often goes away”, or “it can’t be bad if everyone is doing it!” without so much as blinking. This is not what Christ teaches. I’m sick of the degradation of our society. I am doing my part to stop it. In the music I produce that contains vocals and lyrics I will choose to exalt Jesus and uphold biblical truths. By labeling my music as Christian Trance, I am simply stating for the record that I am using my music to convey biblical principles. And it is much deeper than that. Everyone has seen the “Christian Rock” section at the music store and no one questions that. Why? Because obviously the lyrics are indoctrinated with Christian values. But what of the music? What about pure, instrumental music. Can it be Christian? I say it can, without a doubt. Consider the fact that this work is a physical offering to God, an act of worship. Not just the performance of the music itself, but the very act of creating it, designing it and working on it are all elements of the way I choose to worship the Lord. Therefore, it is more than a song. It is a sacrifice of praise. And what better genre to choose to do that!? Trance is uplifting, spiritual, and vibrant!”

God gave vocal trance to you
Gave vocal trance to you
Put it in the soul-oul of everyone!

Sing it with me.....

Okay, I'm being silly. Sorry.

Just a slightly random deep thought: Music does not have an eternal soul (neither is it self-aware) and therefore cannot be saved or even need saving. If that statement is true, then there is no way that music could ever be Christian.

i can appreciate the sarcasm, but really that was so not the point.

dig. aura,
  i can jive with that, but in mix sets i've revued lately they have been mostly instrumental with maybe 1 vocal track typically not saying anything relating to christian values. not that it was anti- christian or anything but nothing that told me it was by a christian artist other the announcer at the beggining.  we need more ppl like dj lorrainne, andy hunter, osmotic hype , even the dance chapel mixxes that aren't afraid to play songs with a blatantly christian message.

Actually, I think that is the point.  I think the point is a bit over stated with the sarcasm but the point stands nonetheless.  For the sake of arguement, why do we need to have an "us vs. them" attitude when it comes to music?  I can appreciate the whole in the world vs of the world discussion but really, if we are so heavenly focused, how can we be any earthly good?

Sky, you know me from that rave I played for you. I played primarily an instrumental set with a few vocal tracks. I purposely chose vocal tracks that reflected my faith in Christ because the event was billed as a Christian event. If the event was billed as a secular event, I would have still included some of those tracks that reflected my faith, however, I would have done one thing differently. I would have played more tracks that were recognizable by the secular crowd, barring lyrics that contradict who I am in Christ.

The thing you have to realize is this: music cannot have a distinction of Christian or secular. What makes the difference is a couple key components. The person who makes the music and the person who plays it out. Even if the music has scripture in it, that does not make it a Christian track. The Bible tells us that the devil knows scripture and has even quoted it to Jesus for his own plans. Anybody can use "gospel lyrics" in their tracks. That does not make them, nor the DJ playing it a Christian. What makes the whole difference is whether or not the person who wrote, recorded, or played the music is a Christian and has the personal conviction to back it up with Christ-like actions. I am not saying the Christian can play music that glorifies sex and drugs and alcohol and other lifestyles that are immoral. That would be contrary to that DJ's personal convictions and therefore would raise some suspicions about that DJ's commitment to living for Christ. I am saying that the DJ who is a Christian can play music of any style as long as the lyrical content does not go against the values that we learn in the Bible and our own personal faith an convictions.

I recently did a mixset called "aLife" and for me it was a personal step of growth as an artist and a DJ. It had lyrics that reflected life and all that it entails, from faith to heartbreak. It was dealing with some issues I have dealt with in my own life as a Christian.

So to answer your question, the difference is not in the music, but in the person behind the music.

Well, i went to see mutemath last night, who are a band who happen to be Christians.

The support act weren't, f-ing and blinding all over the place, and they seemed really egotiostical.

Mutemath came on (crowd went wild), and preformed their tracks with an air of humility about them. Even though they were doing all their stage antics none of it seemed to be "ooooh look i can do this!"

Now i knew that they were Christian so i was picking all this up, but i wonder if anyone who didn't know they were Christian noticed the difference...

+ their drummer is sick and i got one of his drumsticks!!!! He gaffer taped his monitor headphones to his head! thats siiiick!

So music can be contructive if it has a component of dialogue? Making music with others from an existential point of view? Asking what it can contribute to people's life? Operating in the greyzone, Is there even an black/white zone? 

FWIW, here's something that came to mind as I read over this thread....

What makes someone a Christian carpenter (or a carpenter who is a Christian or a Christian who is a carpenter--pick your preferred permutation)? If I'm a Christian carpenter, should I sing hymns while I work and design crosses into everything I build? The former, eh, probably could if I wanted to, but I might not be a singing kind of guy. The latter I think would irritate people and come across as silly. Perhaps I could put one of those little fishy symbols in my company logo or staple a gospel tract to my invoice. Again, the latter probably being the better of the two so-so ideas.

However, I could be an even stronger a witness for Christ by making sure that my carpentry is done to the highest quality standards (not just what needs done to pass inspection or whatever). I could charge a fair rate, show up on time, and be reliable, friendly, and courteous.

I could testify to my relationship with Christ simply by living my life and treating others as He would want me to.

I see the same thing in the musician or DJ case. Audio Baptism brought up Andy Hunter as an example of how to do Christian music right; however, Andy has repeatedly said that his approach to DJing in a secular setting is to not be publicly overt with his witness. But to simply do what he does with the goal to glorify God, and people notice something different about him, which then has often given him a chance to openly speak of his faith.

I think one thing that Christians often over-emphasize is overt witnessing. Yeah, we need to share the Gospel with others, but I'm not sure that "preaching" at folks should be our primary mission. I think, more importantly, we should live day-in/day-out such that people will see that there is something different and good in us, something that they become curious about and may start to want for themselves. Then, they will come to us. Just be prepared to speak about your faith when that time comes.

 8) couldn't have said it better.

I am more of a witness these days by simply loving my wife and spending time with my family. THAT gets more notice than overt witnessing (I guess you meant standing up and screaming the gospel).

BUT

I tend to think AB is right about the opposite being true though. As Christians our attitudes, performances, utterances, etc are all judged. If we aren't being a good example THAT actually carries more weight than any good we do imo.

thank you John, well said.


I think I said that, but who's keeping tabs. :laugh:

[looks back over thread] So, you did mention it, too. But I was referring to this post (http://www.tastyfresh.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,108/topic,8156.msg83941#msg83941). I guess that makes us both right! 8)

but...but....what about MY "well said"? I think I did good too.... :'(

you did too as well, can't believe I forgot >_<

Yeah, 404, you done good, too. (Psst, Daniel: dj404 = high maintenance :laugh: )

I just want to say thanks to all for having the discussion within the guidelines...I get tired of smacking hands and being the meany.

PREACH! PREACH!!! ;D


um, there are all kinds of plugins to fix that, or you could purchase a vocoder.


that is exactly how i see it! I'm shy in real life and i'm not really much of a talker, i much prefer to be doing things rather than saying things.

Another good example of musicians in a secular world are Mutemath. I went to see them the other night and they performed with such an air of humility it was amazing. They were still going crazy on stage (as they do), but it all seemed to be genuine - not just doing it for the sake of showmanship. Sincerity... that was the word i was looking for...

 ;D Yes... thanks :) I'd LOVE to see this type of stuff happen more often around here and YES when framed right (within the confines of the rules), we CAN have spiritual debates here.

they miss the point. you're making music about stuff you like.....just like everybody else does. it just happens to be about Jesus :-)


you make a LOT of good points,but i disagree here.  ;D
      if i offer to repair the plumbing of my church for free as an offering to God does that make the pipes christian? if i donate clothing to my church for our clothing drive does that make it christian clothing?

music is christian in the way air or the forest or water is christian.


right.  nothing wrong with writing about what you believe in. it's equally OK to write about your triumphs,struggles, temptations,etc.

the "christian rock" name is just a convenient way to abbreviate saying "rock music that has lyrics that reflect a christian worldview and/or are worship songs".

quality?

heh.. i forgot to make this joke before  :P

Hmmmm.

Truthfully, and Shawn and Sky youve known me for years, I could care less if someone hears a set of mine and goes "Oh my goodness, thats Christian" or not. When Im DJING, I simply want to look out and see people shaking there a** and smiling and having a good time. I think God will be cool with people dancing to music that doesnt say "Hey, look at me. Im making a statement thru my music; it just says, wow, this is fun"

My music is DARK, but then again, so is DJ Stryke's. (Who was AWESOME at Cornerstone, and my fav DJ in the lineup. Big Ups to Greg!!!)

I cuss like a sailor; I dont think this affects my status in heaven.
I have LOTS of sex; This one might.
In have MAJOR issues with lust; The booty is addicting.
BUT
I am NOT a minister, nor do I want to be one.
I do ask for forgivness on a regular basis
I know I fail, and I am ok with this bc, well, Im human.
and....
XXXChurch.com's Big Bunny is AWESOME. I hugged it and asked it if it wanted to "do things". It shook its head no, and pushed me away. I was heartbroken.

Oh well. Thats life.

I may be a nutcase, but Im still a Christian.

DEAL WITH IT.

 :smiley23: If ur a (Christian) and any type of entertainment you provide whether it be by playing as a DJ or musician, you're ministering to ppl through music. Remember music comes from the word "Muse" which means to think. No one iz perfect but something to remember those who are given much are more responsible when it comes to accountability. Everything must be done in order and Spirit led as well. I am not a DJ, but if I were I would make sure that I would have the lust thing taken care of, because as you said the (fillintheblank)  is addicting. I wouldn't know about the other stuff, cause I never done that b4, I am saving myself for my wife. I still have to battle with lust because I am also human, but I am doing much better in that area, yay. I want to be effective and used by God, in any way that he wants to use me. I know for me lust was blocking my relationship with God, and with others, & my blessings. And were all Disciples of Christ, no one is exempt, were all leaders and ppl look at us, especially those family members who are not saved. Were the only Bible ppl are ever gonna read and actions speak louder than words. (P.S.) I, too have a swearing problem, but that is also going away, if you need help wit that ask God to restore your tongue, its working for me.  8) Hard Tranz rulez  :-[ :-X

Main Entry: minister
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -tered; min·is·ter·ing  /-st(&-)ri[ng]/
1 : to function as a minister of religion
2 : to give aid or service


if you mean #1, why do all DJs have to be ministers?  if you mean #2, then why does the content have to have a certain number of JPMs? ("Jesus' " per minute). the most "spirit led" sets i've ever heard was trancelott & he played almost all instrumentals and said about 3 words in a 1 1/2 hr set.

i DJ for a living. i have to play stuff that people want to hear at their wedding..just like plumbers have to work on peoples' houses that they may not like or mechanics have to work on cars of people they may not like.

i love you alex... it was totally awesome meeting you at cornerstone.

you are the man...


doug theodore

true, doesn't effect your salvation with God, but does effect your testimony to non-believers.  these scriptures come to mind when I read this.

Ephesians 4:29, Ephesians 5:4; Colossians 3:8

with this also, I have cussed time to time, moreover out of anger, but its not part of my day-to-day vocabulary and more or less try not to do it at all.


read Romans 6.  Dude, my hormones are just as bad if not worse, but I can't believe you can consciously say that and tell everyone you're christian.  Yeah, you messed up one night and you asked forgiveness, but to keep on doing it?  My major issue has always been lust and still struggle with it, but I still plan on saving myself for marriage, which I hope is in my future since I still haven't had a girlfriend yet.  Yeah the booty is addicting, but I feel bad even after having a unclean thought.

I'm human too, and this response has been out of brotherly love to you, but read Romans 6, makes you really think on the issue at hand.

Not all DJ's (have) to be, ordained as ministers, in order to minister to someone. What I mean by "Spirit led" is by playing music that God is directing a DJ to play and by selecting tracks wisely, rather than just because they sound good. Saul was not a DJ, but he was the king of Israel, but he was a man pleaser, rather than pleasing God. The moral of the story there is to be obedient:Obedience is better than sacrifice (1 Samuel 15:22). I prefer  instrumental over vocals. Andy Hunter has some instrumentals and those songs have the same anointing on them as much as the one with vocals. He is a tree that bears good fruit, the Bible also says you know a tree by its fruit, ect, ect. The point there is you know ppl by their  actions and words. There have been some (Christian) Artists who have fallen, like Clay Crosse, and Kirk Franklin, when it came to lust, they were still doing music, but they didnt get the victory over it, until they surrendered it entirely to God. God is merciful, and there ministries are still going strong because of what they went through, and how God showed up and healed them. There is really no other point to make there, that just said it all.  You're right on the money Dunamis, you hit the nail right on the head. I havent had a g/f either, and Im prolly on the same boat az u are.  :P  8)

 [/quote]


i love you alex... it was totally awesome meeting you at cornerstone.

you are the man...


doug theodore
[/quote]

Awwwwww. Thats AWESOME.

I enjoyed meeting you as well Doug! And your set was FANTASTIC as well!

I enjoyed meeting Rave Dichards as well. That Cooky Tasty-fresher is ok by me as well!

I hope we can get over to ATL soon and hang out again with you guys; If not, then there will be the AFTERHOURS spot at Cornerstone next year!

And remember: The Screamo bands can have the day, because the night belongs to us, the DJ!!!

Alex

 

*QUOTE*:
read Romans 6.  Dude, my hormones are just as bad if not worse, but I can't believe you can consciously say that and tell everyone you're christian.-Dumanis


I can, and I do.

You may debate me, and suggest scriptures for me to read, which I appreciate, but honestly, I am who I am, and I try to be as honest as I can with anyone I talk to, Christian or not. If I talk to someone about my faith, about what God had done for me, I first inform them that by no means, should they look to my life to find the "model christian". I dont read my bible, but once every six months, I never attend church services, bc I do not trust most "churches", and this is based on what Ive witnessed over the years, and I do not believe in denominations of one faith. That one has never made sense to me.

I try to present someone with a realistic view of what becoming a christian means by letting them know that life, if bad, and lets face it, thats mostly when adults tend to look for Gods "love", probably isnt going to magically become better overnight, that bad things will no longer happen to them, and that they will become the role model citizen all in a flash of light that was followed by a big BOOM.

I do however tell them that God loves them and is there for them in there time of need, and that he can, and will save them, but that he has a plan, and we know not what it is. People find God in different ways, and Id rather help lead them in that direction through honesty and reality, rather than BSing them and trying to seem like I have all of the answers, bc I dont.

This is just my approach. I relate better alot of the time to the common person, bc I come at them on a level they can relate to. Ive been able to talk to the most anti-christian people, and have them listen, bc, as most say, they've never heard a christian speak like that before.

Like I said. Just my approach.

I can honestly say that this is what makes him cool. He is one of the FEW people I know with the courage to admit up front what his issues are and that it is something he knows is wrong and struggles with. I know I don't do that. I'm a coward when it comes to things like that. Admitting you're wrong about something is far different than admitting to "secret sins" like Alex does. He's got my respect.


Well, have you fallen repeatedly with your own lust issues? How does that make you any different? Seriously. Remember, Jesus said if you have even looked lustfully at a woman that you aren't married to that you have committed adultery in your heart.

The fact that Alex does feel convicted enough to 1) know it's wrong and 2) to ask for forgiveness shows that he "gets it." He's not blindly refusing to call a sin a sin. He's publicly admitting what he struggles with. For that, we need to pray for him and be there for him. After talking with him all week, I don't doubt his salvation and I certainly admire his honesty.

Truth is, Alex just needs to do what Paul suggested elsewhere: If a man can't control himself, he should get married. ;)

He'll still struggle with it then too because it's a habit now, but he will struggle LESS.

I've been saying lately that the worst thing to ever happen to the church was its rejection of Martin Luther. Ever since then, we have been dividing ourselves over and over and over again. We're so fragmented now that I don't know how we even can function.

BTW, if you EVER move to my area Alex, I'll have a good church for you that you can trust. Seriously. They might have to adjust a bit to you, but you'll love them and they'll look after you and prove themselves to be trust worthy. You have my word on that.

Oh man, I love threads like this. This stuff is so healthy for us to discuss, we need to support each other and be real with these kind of topics. Firstly, -regarding christian and secular music, you guys have posted a lot of good stuff on this. Firstly, we should remember there are blurred boundaries in 'secular' music, that's why I don't like the absolute division of the 2. On most major dance tracks, there are a whole bunch of people that are involved. To suggest that the guy who makes the track is christian - so therefore the record is christian is a little too black and white for me. In some cases, the singer, or the writer may be christian, but there is also the producer, the mixer, the sound engineer, maybe percussionist, maybe backing vocalists, the record label people involved. Anyone of these people may shift or change the bias of it being christian sourced music. I guess we just have to pray for disrcnment over the records we buy and play.
Secondly, (oh no, this is gonna sound like i'm on a soap box, I'll get off it a sec !) Regarding our sets, the last set I played was 9 1/2 hours straight, it has to be paced. To me, playing a set is like talking to people, if we are talking to non beleivers, we don't start off a 4 hour conversation with bible quotes and Jesus after every second word (in my opinion). My approach is to keep it light before getting heavy, appear approachable to them, and then start to drop the message. If we don't come accross as being well rounded people, the barrier goes up and it's hard to break it down. Same with DJ'ing, before we start ministering to them, let's get their full attention, they have to like what we play before their ears are open to the gospel.
A great example is a guy called Walter Gibbons (crazy name huh). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Gibbons
He was a pioneer in dance music, remixing the first ever 12'' that was commercially available. Pioneered beat matching (and was regarded to be the best) and made the remix into what it is today. He helped form the basis for house music, and produced the most famous remixes for legendary disco label Salsoul records.
He took a break from the scene and returned a born again christian, but he pushed christian tracks and his message so intensely that it was too much for most. And this from the guy responsible for such input into the scene.
The point here is, - I think we should keep it accessible for non beleivers, or else it will remain closed to the outside, as Walter Gibbons music did. We have to reach out to people, and I bleive this IS a great way to do it.
Whoa,....... choo choo !!  ??? :smiley8: full steam ahead !
As to what Alex writes, I'm with Dave Richards on this one. Many of us go thu this, the enemy will use our weaknesses. I made many many mistakes, I think I'm coming thru things pretty well now. When I moved to Japan, the temptation was enourmous. Being foreign alone means women through themselves at your feet (and no !! I'm not saying book that plane ticket right now !! tommorrow maybe ;) ;) :laugh:). We have to try and remember where that temptation is coming from. It takes great fight spiritually after a couple of drinks, lovely perfume, and lipstick and strappy shoes. It takes a bigger man in god to go home alone. Try it, -turn them down, it feels amazing ! anyway, sorry about the rant ! good thread, keep it going !  :hug: :-X

that's great, I seem to be able to talk to non-believers also.  Majority of my friends know I am a christian and opportunities arise where I can talk to them and have good discussion.  Hey, join the crowd, I try to read my bible also.  I want to but get wrapped up in daily tasks that I either forget or feel too busy.  Dad has been lately trying to help me with it along with my prayer life, trying to keep me accountable.  Denominations, yeah I agree, I don't understand why so many have developed.  Mainly pick the one that believes in what the bible says 100% and doesn't have any shady belief systems.  I've got burned once or twice, but its good to have a church family though.

why I answered in the way I did is I read your first post as "hey look at me, I have lots of sex, but God forgives," like there was no remorse or even a "want" to repent and please God since He forgave you.  so thats my bad.


well the last part of my answer to him answers why I said what I said in your quote of me.  To my friends I trust, I admit my faults and stuff I struggle with also.


true, I know that verse good and well, you'll just have to forgive the flesh of me cause our finite minds still likes to distinguish in different sins.


hey, I get it too and know when sin is sin.  I read Every Young Man's Battle at the first of the year.  Started applying lot of the stuff it was talking about, man it started getting lot better and stayed for a long while.  Then the enemy sees Im getting stronger so comes back and knocks me flat on my {mmm....tasty}.  Sad thing cause I haven't had anyone to keep me accountable.  I went to my youth pastor for help but never heard a word from him that day and not its not something to discuss with my dad either.  Friends to talk to and trust are hard to come by also, since most are involved with girlfriends and like. So yeah, its been a rough ride lately.  Im working on this to where its not a habit anymore, cause I know its putting a hamper on what God wants to do with my life and ask prayer for it.

guys you can PM me on this if wanted to discuss further, since we went down a rabbit trail from the original post.

read Romans 6.  Dude, my hormones are just as bad if not worse, but I can't believe you can consciously say that and tell everyone you're christian. [/quote]

*sigh* peoples' exegesis needs SERIOUS help.

i wasn't aware romans 6 said a specific behavior made you unsaved....

you need to take a step back and think about what you're saying before you say it as far as the bible's concerned.  all you're saying by quoting romans 6 is "you shouldn't be doing that stuff". you should watch the implied pride you display when you say "i lust as much as you do but i don't do that stuff..."

here's one for you:  1cor10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

 :P :-[ I am proud, yes that is very true. Am I proud full, nope, far from it. What is it, that I am actually proud of, well thats not hard to answer @ all. I am proud of myself that I didnt put skin on my lust, although I have had the opportunity, I didnt and still wouldnt. I never say "never say,never". I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy. I wasnt judging AlexB, I was just saying he should get his situation some help, because it can be hard to deal with by himself, and if he wants help he can talk with someone from his church or something. Dunamis wasnt judging him either, he was just telling it like it is, and being a real friend and helping him out with some Verses. Yes, I agree with Mr. Richards 100% on everything he said too. Alex is our brother in the lord, and we should all pray for him and help him out anyway that we can.

I just think part of what Davo is saying is, we shouldn't be ranking what it is we do here on earth, apparently its all dust anyway.  We are accountable for our own actions.  People are going to know we are followers of Jesus by how we show love to one another right?  In my opinion, Alex shows that he cares about the people around him, Doug cared about the people he was with, Jeremy cared about the people around him, Dave, Oneel, Fitzpatrick...  I personally think that many of us have grown up without experiencing much of the grace that God offers.  I've dealt with guilt for many years because I was breaking so many rules imposed on me by religious tradition, no matter how I tried to be a good christian.  I think we as a community could practice a little more of the grace God gives us, on the people around us here.  If anyone is offended by this, then please accept my apology but this is how I want to live my life and I'm hoping we as a community can be stronger because of it.

WORD CHRIS  :-X

cool Christians are selfish.  "hey i sin and i'm going to keep doing it because i'm human but i don't love God enough to try and change".  way to be an example of loving God.  this should be locked now that i've read it.

I like pie

Grace people grace...

did you read all the way through or just one or two selective posts? 

[rant]

all i'm saying is that this thread should be locked.  assuming that God grants me grace and mercy no matter what is living without fear.  probably not the best idea.  i am very anti emerging church seeker sensitive because it is creating complacent believers and offers no challenge to better one's self or to show true love towards God.  i'm not one to lay down when these topics come up.  i expect accountability from those i call friends and that doesn't mean saying the most neutral thing for fear of standing up for one's beliefs.

[/rant]

i agree with everything you just said, and i'm part of an emerging church of sorts, the main problem i have is we as christians don't know how to conduct ourselves with people who don't follow jesus and as a result severely alienate ourselves from the people around us.  we are trying to bring people to Jesus and so far the "church" in north america is failing miserably. sorry about the rant but i get so tired of people who can't see past their own "christian" noses because they are so focused on being "saved" and not focused on trying to be Jesus to other people.  i am in no way a complacent believer, you say we need to show true love to God and while i agree, its the greatest commandment but you are only saying half of what Jesus said, the second was to love other people.  where's your love man?   If you don't love the people around you then how on earth can you say you love God?   So far nothing neutral has been said that i can see.   there are certain things i don't agree with, in certain cases, but because i care more about the relationship i have with the person instead of being blinded by a few things in their lives that i don't agree with, doesn't mean i can't show the love of God to them.  no one is asking you to lay down when these "topics" come up.  you jumped into this whole conversation without knowing several of the people involved, the situations they just came from, and the relationships that were built over the last few weeks.  a few simple negative comments from someone who is unwilling to reach out to people and they will be driven away! seriously!  how is our small group supposed to grow if everyone puts up their own staunch religious barriers, where are you going to draw the line?  we live in a gray zone and christians can't afford to live in a bubble.

this is why this should be locked.  now i have to defend myself because i gave an opinion.  i'm tired of "the church today doesn't understand people" bandwagon nonsense.  if the church doesn't accept people for who they are then tell why there are church services being held in bars and in warehouses for homeless people?  why are there so many bitter Christians? are we not to turn a cheek and continue forth with what God has called us to?  i'm sorry if my type of love isn't coated with Starbucks and unicorns.  i can truly love and respect anyone from any walk of life but i won't sit back and let the "ho hum" version of Christianity move forward.  people need to quit wallowing in the negative self-depreciating complacent life movement and embrace change and the joy of knowing Jesus Christ.  when i say showing love to God, that means showing love to other people.  there is no separation to me.  they are the same.  being balanced doesn't mean having neutral viewpoints or living in a "grey zone".  and btw if my comments drive someone away then i'm sorry but listening to watered down viewpoints that had no conviction behind them is what drove me away from Christianity so many years ago.  i appreciate people who stand up for what they believe even if it's different from what i do.  that's why they call these types of conversations debates.

actually... the way debates work is you give your opinion and then your opinion gets challenged. There's nothing in this thread that says it should be locked.

After spending a week with Alex, I see him at a starting point. He knows it's wrong. He just hasn't let it go yet. It's an area where he needs to grow spiritually. Now... beyond that, at LEAST he's honest about his sin and is calling it a sin. Not every Christian is open about their short comings and it's the honesty that I applaud, not the sin. I can tell you that knowing his sin, I wouldn't put in charge of certain things, but I'm not going to kick him out of the group either.

Everyone has shortcomings.  The real point is do you acknowledge them,  or try to sweep them under a rug as so many Christians do.

I think one thing that often gets overlooked is where someone's come from. How far are they from their "starting point"? To give a concrete example... If, at the time he became a Christian, someone used to spend hours a day on Internet viewing hardcore porn but now views "R-rated" porn, say, a total of half an hour per month, is this not growth and improvement? Isn't this something for which he can praise God to others, even while still not "pure"?

I worked with the recovery ministry at our former church. It was often a horrible experience. Not because of the guys seeking help (I enjoyed talking with them) but because of the attitude of the other male leader. This guy talked often, but rarely listened. His talking was more like a sermon or devotional than expressing anything personal. At one point, he actually proclaimed, "I've got all of my sin issues dealt with."

I'm still working through my whole view of the grace/holiness thing, but one thing that I firmly believe is that, over time, if I love God more, I likely will sin somewhat less (although as Steven Brown says, "I'm not going to get much better."); however, if I sin less, it's far less likely that I will love God more.

We all have sins we commit that we are comfortable with and overlook. It might be sex/lust (don't forget, checking out the melons of the woman in the produce aisle is lust too), it might be pride/self-righteousness, it might be gossiping/criticizing others to make me feel better about myself.

All other things being equal, I'll take the self-admitted sinner over the saint who feels "I've got all of my sin issues dealt with".

wise words John. :)

hey, i hear ya.  i just hear too much from people that have had input into my life (good and bad) having no problems telling people to love God but then turning around and treating me like dirt.  i have struggled with bitterness in the past but to be honest i've had a lot of "new life" in the last few years that has made me bolder about caring for other people despite all the short comings of the "church."  i don't know too many outsiders who would dare step into a church because of a deep seated fear of christians and i just don't think that is a very healthy thing for the church and it tells me that some things we cling to so hard that are based on reading between the lines of scripture and not any black and white proof, an opinion of an interpretation....  anyway, it tells me that there might be some things we could be doing differently.  i believe that Church needs to start leaving the "church" and i'm sure you would agree with that to a certain extent.  Are we here to just discuss interpretation behind the pews or to spread the love of Jesus to people around us?  From my experience we've leaned too heavily in the one direction and people don't get a chance to see God's love manifested in us.  wouldn't you agree with that?   

i have an interesting example of when i was in highschool, we had an english class section on poetry or something and the teacher encouraged us to bring in lyrics and music that influence us so we could critique the content.  some of the kids in the class listened to Marilyn Manson and were gonna bring something of his into class.  well, i had several christian buddies in the class that made a big stink about it and decided that if Manson's music came into the classroom, they would walk out as a protest.  let me tell you that not one person in that class, not even me, admired them for sticking to their principles. why?  for one, no one saw it as "oh, look, christians living a righteous life"  no it was "some dumbasses living a self-righteous life"   They didn't affect anyone in a postitive way.  In my opinion, its those christian friends of mine that had the "watered down" viewpoint that you coined. 

yes, in fact my "emerging church" helps out in many of those places you mentioned, there are many people working hard to bring more people Jesus, but i do think that "the church today doesn't understand people" statement is not nonesense like you said.  i'd be willing to bet that about 60-70 percent of the evangelical church is more concerned about politics in their church constitution, the color of paint for their renovation, wine or grapejuice, wood pulpit or metal stand, and drape colors, than to care if a homeless guy would feel welcomed in their church.  the early church was all about filling in gaps/needs where they were needed.  man, i speak a bit strongly about this, not because i got "jaded" with my church going experience.  i grew up as a missionary kid and i know "church" life like the back of my hand, i also spent time being involved in a ministry capacity in church, not just polishing a spot on a church bench week after week, so i have some grounds for the way i've been speaking.   i'd like to know a little bit about your experience.   i'm also a bit curious why you wouldn't give a gentle exhortation to alex instead of calling out our "watered down viewpoints" as we try to encourage him?

sorry, i'm not sure how to read you.  several of your statements are laced with what looks like sarcasm to me.  if your way of calling out me/us as "cool Christians are selfish" with our watered down viewpoints as a better "way to be an example of loving God," then i don't want any of what you are selling.  i'm excited about bringing new people into my Jesus focused community and the endless opportunities for discipleship, like i haven't in a long time.  i know i talked to many people at Cornerstone about my passion for God and the people around me, you can't cram all of that into a "watered down viewpoint" box, i just don't think its that simple.

Joel, -  :-X That clicked with me ! Your words are exactly how I live my faith out. I'm new to this board, but I'm not a people pleaser, and I've also come through my share of a testing road to faith. One thing I'm not for sure is a 'beige' christian, - I've never been more staunch than I am now in faith. I belive strongly that whilst our concrete faith should never faulter, our approach is all but open. I also find comments like 'i'm sorry if my type of love isn't coated with Starbucks and unicorns' kinda 'cut off'. it should be !!!!! maybe not the unicorns part, but as Christians, I fully have faith that we are representatives ! Be involved in modern life, if your faith is as strong as it seems, you will have the godly wisdom to discern those influences that are faith harming, and those that are not. If you don't rise to this challenge to represent him, - hide in a box somewhere until he returns (which should be pretty soon !). We still need to outreach, even in these confused messed up times. I for one pray daily for the faith 'muscule' to rise to that challenge. Wanna start talking end days as our next topic ?? Or Isreal ? havent seen that in posts so far, and that is the real deal. I'm glad this thread is not locked, - why should it be ??

oh, and on that topic of end days, anyone else get dreams every night with visions of the last day ?? I sure do. Multi colours and all. I heard once some biblical quotes on that. Oh and (sorry to post this stuff here, but well, I'm getting a lot of messages and attacks these days) the last 8 days, I had the number 6*6 right in my face no less than 3 times. Sorry to come on so heavy, please add me as a P.S to your prayers.

JOEL: you're wise beyond your years, homie  ;D


FIENIX!!! how have you been, bro?! good to see ya.  How goes the music?  8) ;D

I understand what you're saying,but i don't think you can generalize it to the entire emerging movement.  read Dan Kimball. he's orthodox in his theology.

anyway, let me give you a few answers:
- if there really were that many services held in bars & warehouses we'd probably get more respect than we currently have.

-christians are bitter for many reasons, one of them being because they're told they can have their "best life now" if they only manage enough of their sins for a long enough time (and give enough to their church), and that is simply not biblical
   in my case, i got sick of hearing there's nothing biblically wrong with dancing,but not being able to put my talent to use for that last 10 years in churches...

-being complacent wasn't invented by the emerging church. as a matter of fact they're rebelling against the complacency that is so common in the US evangelical church.

- i dont think anyone said to water down your views or to become neutral on views.  the argument is how do we go about reaching people?  Jesus both ate with sinners AND gave hellfire and brimstone messages, depending on who he was trying to reach.


WORD. I'm working through the same thing...  so much of the (US evangelical) church is about sin management (Or at least the sins that are deemed bad enough to manage)  and it doesn't work.     I know for a fact,however, if i get closer to God by praying,reading the Bible, etc. I sin less.

speaking of bars...

Jimmy and Tammy Baeker's son (Jay Baeker) held a church on sunday afternoons/early evenings at the masquerade(largest 3 room venue in atlanta mostly does rock and industrial stuff with some dance) and he served beer during it and booked mainstream bands, then would discuss Christ with the attendees.  He has left town but was getting around 400-450 to come


i'm telling you... it fits right in my new life motto I stated in another thread

love God, love others, party hard

Man, I must have been blessed for my entire life. I don't think I've even been in a Church that cared more about sin management than they did my relationship with God. Seriously. I can't think of one church I've been a member of where they said I should sin less to get closer to God. Every church I've been in put it as the closer you get to God by spending time with him, the less you will sin.

Davo, I think that's probably why I don't get your complaints about the SBC and other conservative churches. I just haven't had that experience. If I ever do, I'll leave. That's not the message I hear communicated to me from God or the Bible. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying it hasn't been my experience in 33 years.

Maybe... we get it right here in the south and then you guys in the Midwest get stuck with the screwballs.

lol, ah those screwballs... so crazy.



Thats awesome Dave, I'm glad you've had a positive experience like that.  I'm trying to work it out in my head that I probably shouldn't be categorizing all my experiences in the good and bad fields, rather that they are just experience over all.  Both present opportunities for growth if I am open to learning from them.

dave: turn on the TV and watch just about any evangelical....there's always some new "4 steps to spiritual fulfillment" or "8 ways to find your God given calling" and much of it involves "getting yourself right (enough) with God" first.  and that's not what the bible says. it says you're MADE RIGHT with God throught Jesus. That's a command of God independent of your actions.


hmm.... the only thing i remember criticizing the SBC for was emphasizing that wives should submit to their husbands above the many other equally important commands in the Bible.

and i didn't say conservative churches. i said many US evangelicals, which is a broad spectrum of people who seem to have similar views on how God works in our lives.

i'm glad you've never had a bad experience in church. that's awesome.  many, many people I know have....

I'm including those in what I said. Even in listening to those "Get right with God first" sermons, I have never heard some one say "You have to totally stop sinning before you can be useful to God." I've heard "Get right with God first." That covers sooo much more than sinning. How can you be "right" with him if you don't have an active relationship with him?

Maybe it's just bad phrasing in most cases rather than what you are seeing. Maybe, those churches should be called cults rather than churches. You know... that God Hates Fags church say that it's baptist, but they are ANYTHING but that. I've heard too many ppl talk about that church as though it's an SBC one which is absolutely is not.


A few weeks ago, it was dancing ;) I know what you mean about the woman, but I have NEVER heard an SBC minister teach that submission meant being obedient and rarely has it been taught w/o covering a husband's responsibility to love his wife as Christ loved the Church. After all, in order for the husband to do that, he has to be willing to die for his wife. The wife, in that perspective, maybe geting off easy ;)


Ok... I'm confused: Which churches are conservative and NOT evangelical??? :) Seriously.


I've known ppl who have too. In just about EVERY case though it was b/c the person allowed the church to have more control over them than it should have. In fact, that was usually b/c of the shoddy discipleship of the small group leaders. This is a problem that extends to even emergent churches as well.

i didn't say this. you did.  I said they focus on sin management rather than relationship with God. 




 as far as i can tell from the Bible, we're MADE right by accepting the atoning blood of Jesus Christ apart from ANY works we may or may not do.  explain how "getting right with god" works if that's not how it works.




i wasn't talking about those nutters. give me a little credit  ;)



poor choise of words on my part. by US evangelicals i mean (generally) charismatic/pentacostal/AG type folks.    by conservative i mean conservative :-)

What else could you mean by sin management though?


Different definition of "right" I guess. Yours is correct, but getting right with God in all the ways I've heard it used in the south means: Confess/repent your sins and start spending time with God.

The phrase has very little to do with whether or not we are made whole/right the moment we get saved.

Sorry, that wasn't really directed at you... well... maybe it was... but it was more for the ppl I have to deal with regularly at the U.


Oh good. I feel better now. 'Cept... I still don't like the SBC and a host of OTHER denoms being left out of the "us evangelical" category. BTW, denominations by regions are REALLY flaky. For example: The Lutherans are very conservative in MN and go on all sorts of evangelical mission trips, but here in Atlanta, they're about as liberal as you can get. I have been to several Lutheran services in multiple churches where God was never mentioned once in the sermon. This scares the crap out of me.

i chose my words carefully, dave  :)
read what you wrote there. NOONE thinks you have to "totally stop sinning" before you can be "i]useful to God[/i]." i put the emphasis to make a point that you and i are not saying the same thing.

  i'm not sure i can put it better than godlovesmaggots put it:
 "one thing that I firmly believe is that, over time, if I love God more, I likely will sin somewhat less (although as Steven Brown says, "I'm not going to get much better."); however, if I sin less, it's far less likely that I will love God more."

What I'm getting at is that when I listen to sermons that focus on "sin management" as you are calling it, I'm hearing and understanding that to mean what glm's saying.

One thing I see as a problem here is "church" wasn't meant to be a exclusive entity or a denomination, the movement is already established.  Most new denominations or all at one point where people who left another church becuse "they were right".  Theology is important, but there still is alot of selfishness, or what can I get out of this church going around.  I think its time for people to stop stereotyping other christians and movements.  I attend a Evangelical church, and I think its comical that anyone would think that the TV guys are anything close to the churches like that in the Midwest.  I know it wasn't directly said, but its funny.  Althought I listen to many other speakers out there from Rob bell, to TD Jakes, its good to focus on the word.  Really its time for people to come together, and work together.  Church was suppossed to be groups of people operating and living in community.  People are bitter becuase the relationships aren't there, true community, a place to share common goals, and help each other along the way.  Evangelism wouldn't be necessary once your community hears of the "realness" that is filling your church.  Its the way the new testament church grew so well.

As far as the christian music label, I have never really liked that.  Christian really comes from the words little christ, with that said, there is no music out there that represents christ and what he is about, I think Dave hit on that a bit.  The difference will be in the relationships you make with people along the way, and what you do with them.  The gospel is about people, and people doing God's work, if your not growing together your not growing at all.  Its good to see that some people are and have that.  2 cents I guess.

^ word.

you're right about the selfishness,but what is someone to do when for instance your church is selling pews in the front row to the highest bidder? you break off from the methodists and form the free methodists.

what do you do when your church is selling indulgences, and selling pardons from purgatory?
 you start the reformation.

what do you do when your church says the holy spirit no longer moves in the lives of people?  you form the assemblies of God.

what do you do when your church says all you have to do is give enough money and get right enough with God and all your dreams will come true?  you start an emerging church movement.

i love how every time someone has any criticism of "the church" people start saying stop stereotyping & let's work together....and my favorite: "quit bringing a spirit of division".  Iron is supposed to sharpen iron..we're not supposed to sit in our comfortable little drawers & rust (heheh..i like that metaphor)

it's not commical...i guess you don't go to an AG church. you do listen to TD Jakes, though, and i'll tell you there's TONS of guys like him & Osteen & Joyce Meyer out in " the midwest". 


name 10 churches in the US that fit all your criteria above.  Rob Bell's seems to....and....?

i'm still waiting to see the "realness" in the church to the level you're talking about.  I know there's lots of great churches out there that do a lot,but how many churches do you really know that a prostitute would feel welcome in?  be BRUTALLY honest now...
     bring it down to a level we all understand.  how many of you have tried to do a dance for your kids & gotten the cold shoulder from your churches?  it's certainly NOT forbidden anywhere in the bible. 

so what's the problem?  we like our "home away from home" to be neat and clean, not messy and dirty.  we like to forbid the real freedom Christ gives us because we're terrified it might lead to dirty dancing...when kids are getting pregnant in youth groups across the country.

so what do we do? we talk about sin management rather than falling in love with God.  (ya like how i brought that full circle? ;)  )

Luther never wanted to split the church though. That's the key. He was REJECTED by the church for his criticism of it and kicked out. What choice did he have at that point. The Church was in the wrong and it is to blame for where we are today. Had the church corrected itself when confronted as it and all denominations SHOULD do, we would not have this division that we do today.


You first try to correct the church and you do not intentionally cause more division. If and ONLY if you can't, you leave that church and find another.

Jumping straight to emergent or whatever the next big thing is... won't matter, b/c at some point in the future, you will find the emergent or next big thing to be fouled up too. You fix it. You invest the time and effort to fix it. Further division does not strengthen the  church.


No, but we're not supposed to get mad and abandon each other either.


Well... Annistown Road Baptist Church (http://www.arbc.org/) in Snellville, GA is one. So... 8 more to go. Cross Pointe Baptist Church (http://www.mycrosspointe.com/) with Former SBC President Dr. James Merritt. Don't think Merritt can be compassionate similar to what you talking about Davo? Read this. (http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=13561)

Ok... 7 left. ;)

Thomas Road Baptist Church (Jerry Falwell's church). Here's why: If Jerry was "Christian" enough to open a house for unwed mothers both as a place to live and a means to a college education AND if Jerry could be good friends with porn kingpin Larry Flynt, there is no reason in the world why a prostitute could not feel loved by his congregation.

OK, that's 6. Who's next?

North Point Community Church in Georgia (Andy Stanley and Passion) and Cornerstone Church in Simi Velley, CA (Francis Chan), both are rockin churches with good theology.  I love listening to both pastors.

Yup... Andy's great. So... that's at least 3 churches from Atlanta, the heart of the bible-thumpers all the emergent types are against. All three of them are also SBC too.

Andy is great!!!

Nothing wrong with Rob bells church, just said I listen to him, haven't listen to Jakes in quite a few years, but everyone has a story and its valid, and I wanted to hear it.  I like to get a well rounded approach to what I am learning, and its like reading commentary, everyone has their perspective.  I look at Jewish culture, as well as talking about books written by Eugene Peterson, to John bevere.  Jakes story is relevant, just like mine is, just like daves is, you gotta be who you are, even if the emergent church or the AG don't like you, or someone on a forum :) .  My best friend is a Pastor in Sanfrancisco and daily we talk about ways to revive the church and bring it into an "orignal intent" focus.  We need work, anyway you look at it, and you need everyone.  We were never meant to operate in a way that someone woule come into a place and feel comfortable, becuase the church is just people, not a building, or modern coffe shop with singing.  People don't go to church anymore, the days of non christians just walking in are over, so in some way its a irrelevant question.  The problem is that chruch has become a building, ritual, and not people, although there is a realization of this of late, its way behind.   

Actually I do go to GR first assembly of God, Michigan, so I am in the midwest,a nd add that to the list :).  I can only speak for my own church I guess.  For me it comes down to looking at the church as people.  I don't agree or like everything that goes on all time, but I made a committment to people there in effort to invoke community.  I didn't leave when Rob Bell's church Mars Hill took off down the road or when they took an offering I didn't like.  Changing something and making it better means from the inside.  You have to use your judgment I guess, if your church isn't operating correctly than maybe you need to jam or maybe you need the courage to make changes, but that is harder so usually people leave.  Usually people are looking to get something out of chruch rather than give to it, so those feeling emerge.  Daves right though Martin Luthers attempt was unity.  teh iron sharpens iron is out of context, rattling off an opinion or posting on a forum gripe about a church isn't that.  Its describing a relationship, real, loving, and mentoring.

So I don't misunderstand the comment are you slamming Joyce Meyer, curious?  Paul talked quite a bit about sin management and how to maintain the walk, and how to live to avoid the trap of sin, not much about falling in love with God in there.  Try song of soloman though :)

Right! And that I guess is why I have issues when people complain about sermons that focus on sin management. I mean, you can love a prostitute as Christ did, but even Christ told the ones he associated with to "Go and sin no more." It wasn't just "you're forgiven." At some point, you have to correct the sin habit and manage it out of your life. God will do that, but you still have to do some of the leg work and be willing to wrestle with your own flesh.

you're joking, right?  1. i know Jerry was a 'good christian'. His public persona & his constant appearances on shows to debate things he was ILL equipped to debate gave him a very, very bad name in the secular community.
2. Jerry is not his congregation. 

since you're being a wiseguy by being so literal, heres' the list i quoted to MAKE SURE you're getting your church count right:

1 groups of people operating and living in community
2 true community,
3 a place to share common goals,
4 and help each other along the way. 
5 your community is hearing of the "realness" that is filling your church.  (**this is key. )

and: 6. Its the way the new testament church grew so well. ( i assumed this to mean new christians/seekers coming in on a daily/weekly/monthly basis)


 i went to a church that did lots of "good stuff". that doesn't mean "undesirables" were welcome in there day to day...i remember seeing a biker dude outside smoking and everyone stepping right around him & not saying a word to him except for me.

you're missing my point anyw