Hello,

How many releases did C2G/Slyder have?  I have both C2G cd's, and know theres a handfull of 12" releases.  I was listening to some the mp3's i acquired 5 or so years ago when filesharing was much more prevelant- yet they are not on any of my cd's.   So if you could please help out a noob :o, i'd greatly appreciate it

c2g had 2 albums on N*Soul. At least the first was rereleased with a new cover. They also did a praise and worship EP which was given out for free for a VERY limited amount of time. As Slyder, they didn't have any albums, but they did have a few singles out under that name and a few others like Spyder and R.R.D.S. These tracks were also featured on several secular compilations, usually by Dave Ralph. Now Chad and Jeremy are working as 1/2 of Shiny Toy Guns... who absolutely rock with the exception of one song with an F-bomb in it.

What is the dealio with swearing in music? It only shows the lyricists lack of adjective knowledge!

On a side note...speaking of Le Disko  12" single with 4 remixes.... at hot topic.com

http://www.hottopic.com/hottopic/store/product.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024135&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442152931 (http://www.hottopic.com/hottopic/store/product.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024135&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442152931)

So, i went through my mp3's to pick out the items that I can't find any reference of anywhere:  here they are

as Cloud2Ground:

Afterglow, Feel Good, Fly (paradigmatic mix), Supernatural, Vocoder, F5 (ext. Ver.), Away (hydroplane mix)

and a remix of Dreams by Cranberries.

as Slyder:

Carry on (orig mix and rrds morning sun mix), Lex luther, Walking on Water, Spyder Skeye

Then a Tracked labled 'same' by Jeremy Dawson

I suppose theres the chance that some person mislabled some of these tracks perhaps- i don't know... maybe some of you do.

Agreed!  8)

And I'm gonna put myself out there and say that I think it's a disgrace that ANY exception is made for Chad and Jeremy to be part of this group (if they still want to be regarded as Christians). I understand the difference between being IN a Christian band and being a Christian IN a band. I don't judge their souls, but I can say it shows poor judgement on the part of any Christian who doesn't take a stand on something like this. It is a major stumbling block, and rightly so...it's pure 100% worldy portrayal. It's no different then me at my workplace not taking a stand or actually participating in bad language.
There. I've said it.

UNACCEPTABLE!

I've told JD that on this site b4. JD and Chad wrote that song. Dunno who fought to use that word, but the credit is to them, not the rest of the band.

 :o
well....okay then.  :-[

you just DID judge their souls by saying "if they still want to be regarded as christians". i didn't know the use of a certain word decided whether you were saved or not.  having to put up with statements like this from the christian community for the last....15 years or so while receiving no support is probably why they formed the band in the first place...to make music that people will actually appreciate and buy.  ask the guy from celldweller.

true,it should be a goal that we shouldn't swear...but is it more important that Bono not use the F word or that he's working to wipe out aides in africa?  we're not perfect.

Im so appalled and ashamed of this stupid thread I dont even know what to say.

I cant believe you guys are pointing the fingers at a swear word like a bunch of 5 year old kids who never heard a bad word before.  Some words in languages are used to emphasize and emotionalize and while there may be formal/informal situational reasons not to use them there is nothing unbiblical about them.

Its silly things like this that make Christians look like a bunch of wussburger hypocrites.

At the risk of making this a dreaded spiritual discussion, the Bible does clearly say that, as followers of Christ, no unwholesome talk is to come out of our mouths. Society in general regards the "F bomb" as unwholesome. (Just ask the movie industry. Two F's and you've earned an "R".)

Davo, the Bono example is apples and oranges. Bono can do just as much good in Africa without swearing. Swearing doesn't make him a more effective humanitarian. Does someone being publicly Christlike in one way mean that we're to overlook that person's public unChristlike behavior in another area?

And, Dan, in this situation, we're only hypocrites if we expect other Christians not to swear while pretending that we don't swear when we actually do or when we think it's okay for us to swear but criticize others for doing it. Unfortunately, I still sometimes cuss when I lose my temper. Does it make me a hypocrite to say that Christians shouldn't swear? Not at all, because I know that my behavior is sinful and is something that I try hard not to do.

I do think Digi's word choice could've been better. I think what he was getting at (at least how I read it) was more in regard to Christ's trees-and-fruits type statements. You can think that someone's not behaving properly as a Christian and wonder whether or not they really are a Christian without judging them (you wonder, but you know that only God truly knows their heart). If the observable behavior isn't Christlike, it's not unreasonable to wonder whether Christ is present ("regarded as Christians"). To me, he's saying that it's bad judgment and unacceptable for Christians to speak in an unwholesome manner (which I would say includes slander, gossip, and others in addition to simply swearing). The Bible supports him. I don't see him saying that there's no way they could possibly be Christians, which would be judging.

Thanks for the reply, GLM.  I think this is an okay conversation to have at the moment because it does directly relate to the dance scene and music as a whole.

I would like to point out the Bible has a number of phrases that would be considered 'unwholesome' even by todays standards (eg, Isaiah 64:6 - We are all like one who is unclean,  all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight.).  That makes me sick even typing it.

There was a teacher at Bible college that once said he believed if you weren't passionate enough about something to swear about it, but you believed it so strongly, then you might not be as passionate about it as you think you are.

The verses most commonly pulled out to say that the Bible says you should swear are typically:


Matthew 5:33-37

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

(I think we will agree the above has nothing to do with actual curse words... it says dont swear oaths)



Ephesians 4:29 and

29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

This one is hugely debatable, like you said.  Gossip?  Slander?  From my perspective, a few words which are offensive to some almost dont even fall into this category.


Matthew 12:34-37.

34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Again, some may choose to apply this to swearing but.. unless you are a brainless, non-expressive automaton I hardly see anyone, especially an artist, refraining from exploring the maximum means of expression.  And call me crazy but, I dont see God really up there putting tick marks down for the swear words you say. 

You know .. did you actually stop to listen to the words of whatever shiny toy guns song has the 'f bomb' in it?  I think the biggest tragedy of all of this may be that you closed your ears of to the song rather than actually listen to what the artist wanted to say.

Here is my final point.  This is all my belief and perspective.  Take it for what it's worth but - I just dont want to see anyone brainwashed out there.  If you see what I wrote and still think or feel liek swearing is bad.. thats fine but come on, lets be a little more grown up about it and stop pointing fingers at silly things.  It pains me to see people calling out things that drill down to a few obscure phrases in the whole of the Bible.  And other people see that too.

That seems a ridiculous statement. Jesus didn't cuss out the Pharisees, Pilate, or the Jews but was still passionate enough to be tortured to death and suffer the excruciating agony of spiritual separation from God. Fox's Book of Martyrs must've been censored. I don't recall any profanity in the records of the martyrs speaking before they were killed. Stephan, the first martyr, nope, no cussing. So, your prof would say they weren't passionate enough? That makes no sense.

From dictionary.com:

Profanity:

Profane:

Sorry, man. Doesn't sound like the definition of passionate Christian speech to me.


Yup. We agree.


I think you gloss over this one too easily. Does your last sentence mean that you don't consider swearing to be unwholesome talk? If so, I find that odd, and we'll never come to any understanding because we're facing in two opposite directions.


I see it as apply to profanity and much more, as I mentioned in my first reply.

Other than to say that, thanks to God's grace and Christ's death and resurrection, God's not keeping tick marks on any of my sins, yours, or anyone else's, I'm skipping addressing the remainder of your reply because I find it insulting. You previously labeled those who disagree with you as hypocrites. Now, you've added in "brainless, non-expressive automaton", assumed that I haven't read the lyrics (which I have) and have closed off my ears (I'm wrong for choosing to refrain from listening to lyrics that have words in them that I consider profane??), alluded to the possibility that I'm brainwashed for not agreeing with you, and stated that I'm being childish (not grown up).

Thank you for solidifying my points :)

There is quite a bit of discussion going on relating to John Piper's recent use of the language "God kicks your {mmm...tasty}" at the Passion 07 conference. 

I think what is missing is a real discussion of philosophy of language. Now, I am a realist so I believe that all of our linguistic symbols and signifiers have a referent. In other words, reality is not created and constructed by our words. All languages refer to things which are real in the created space/time order or metaphysical realities as is the case of language referring to God, souls, abstract ideas (sets of numbers etc.) Additionally we may logically rearrange ideas with our language as when we "refer" to pink unicorns.

The reason we can call something feces, poo-poo, etc. is that it refers to something. Additionally our language that God "kicks our ____" (choose your word) also speaks to an actual state of affairs that obtains. (Here it is noted  that a profanity is speaking of something holy in a way that belittles, blasphemes...profanes.  Obscenities are that which is vulgar or offensive)  Yet, with the case of obscenities, one must discuss the usage of language within a cultural/linguistic group. Dr. Grudem has done this in stating the following:

    A number of different words can denote the same thing but have different connotations, some of them recognized as "unclean" or "offensive" by the culture.

The problem here arises because we must ask "which culture" - There is no easily arrived at shared norm in English speaking culture today to which we can refer. If one follows what is allowable by censors on television, then {mmm...tasty} is certainly not an obscenity at all. It perhaps was 50 years ago, but it in no way is "offensive, vulgar, etc." in the mainstream today. If however one means to "the Chrisitan community" we are again mired to differentiate acceptible language within certain subcultural groupings of Christians. Should Piper's language be considered obscene if his audience found no offense in it whatsoever? Or if someone actually took offense to it somewhere on the internet, or in the car listening to it on CD? In regards to language I believe we must realize that though reality is not constructed by language, things such as obscenities are quite communally oriented. Many words which would cause shame, derision in some parts of the body of Christ are completely benign and venacular to the culture at large. Words like "suck" "pissed off" are quite normal on the street. Many Christian converts, those who did not grow up in a certain sub culture, would have been right at home with Piper's remarks; perhaps discipleship will lead them to saying things other than "Kick your ___" or even dropping the whole "kicking" metaphor altogether. But I think what was communicated was more truthful, honest, and biblically faithful to some of Dr. Piper's hearers than just about anything I could substitute. Perhaps many who are not regularly engaged with real, worldly, non Christian speakers are outraged by someone saying "that sucks" - but believe me, in our "culture" this sort of language would not come close to meeting a dictionary definition of obscenity as: "Something or an utterance that is disgusting to the senses abhorrent to morality or virtue."

Reality, including truth and morality is fixed. I am not advocating for any sort of relativism at all. All the verses Dr. Grudem cited refer to real states of affairs before God which we must yield and obey. Yet they refer to orientations of the heart and affections and then expressions of these with words and actions. It is precisely here where it requires wisdom and discernment. To know what is corrupting talk and what is edifying in our community. Does it move one towards idolatry, self worship, the degradation of others, hatred of neighbor, profaning that which is holy, does it titilate, tear down, provoke unrighteous anger, mock, etc, etc. These are the questions we must ask for these things happen in our souls and in our communities. Does a Christian, who is looking at the death of his infant child and says "this present age sucks" committ a heinous sin? Or has he said something real and true about life outside of the garden in the language he finds as home. The language which we use to describe our inner states as well as the states of the world does shift. So my bottom line is this. I think such conversations about "corrupting talk and crude joking" will always happen within the body of Christ. Some calling for Piper's head because he said {mmm...tasty}, others saying he didn't do a thing wrong. In the spirit of loving our brothers, our neighbors, we should not seek to offend one another, push the edges simply to ruffle others, etc. This is immature and sophomoric. Yet neither should we claim the definitive high ground above others whose language is a bit rougher than the small tribe in which we make our home. They might just be communicating gospel truth to others. Love covers a multitude of sins and helps us on in this conversation so please don't cuss me out nor smugly dismiss the discussion.

here is another quote:

"I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a {mmm...tasty}. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said {mmm...tasty} than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”


Tony Campolo

*sigh*

The point is not what we should or should not do. we all know what perfection is.... It's a matter of degree and consistency in judgment.

-do you judge your local church women's coffee clatch with the same severity as you judge chad & jeremy?  do you question their very salvation because of the gossip flying around??  (it's there in abundance,believe me.)

-do you question the salvation of the smokers in your church?  the overweight people? after all,they're not taking care of their temple of the holy spirit.

-do you root out the kids having sex in your local youth group & question their salvation? (they are having sex,btw. if you don't think so, you're naive.)

-do you judge your pastors' 'evil & selfish motives' in doing some of the things they do?
 (if you haven't seen petty politics and personal agendas in the church, you've never been very involved in a church)

this is one of the few cases i will bring up the scripture "judge not lest ye be judged..because in the same measure you judge it will be measured back to you" (paraphrase from memory)

  do you want to be judged that harshly by people around you? you may not swear and have it imortalized on disc,but what's your pet sin you can't get over or haven't conquered yet?  we all have them, they're just not as visible as the sins we like to pick on.


---------------

That seems a ridiculous statement. Jesus didn't cuss out the Pharisees, Pilate, or the Jews
that's an anchronistic statement if ever i read one.

brood of vipers...white washed graves...Jesus used very strong language in his day to describe these people. not our 21st cntury swear words,but certainly harsh language. (not justifying swearing..making a point)
----------------

on a different topic,but it relates to what we're talking about- (playing the part of jeremy today will be davo):  unless you DJ & play out like Jeremy does,you have no idea what it's like out there...NO idea.  do you have any women at the places you DJ at come up and want to sleep with you?  how about men?  have you ever had 3 random people start making out on your dance floor?

*what do you do when that happens?  I seem to remember Jesus walking into just such places & he was so charismatic & dynamic and loving that people took notice.

-do you think andy hunter jumps on the mic and says, "hey! stop that!" ??  in the places He's DJing?  NO. his very demeanor & presence gets people's attention. he sure doesn't preach at them...

there's people who are hurting & dying out there that may be reached by Jeremy & Chad (AND Bono,et al) that noone else can reach...and we're more worried about the F word in a song.
   i'm sure chad & jeremy have plenty of close friends & accountability partners who will tell them what's what. they don't need strangers doing it for them.

Heh... here's my counter: Tony C can control his mouth. He can't prevent 30,000 kids from dieing. In fact... he has the power, authority and responsibility to control what comes out of his mouth. He has none of those when it comes to those 30,000 kids.

To simply say we are upset about the small things when we shouldn't be is the EXACT opposite of even what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we are to take care of the small things we are put in charge of and once we do that, we will be given more responsibility. Controlling our mouths is one of those small things. In fact, the Bible says that what comes out of your mouth is a direct reflection of what is in your heart. It isn't something unconnected and it isn't "just words."

BTW, I'm not casting judgment here. At least not trying to. I've said my peace to JD. I wish they didn't use it. I now can't listen to that CD around my son. But... it's really between him and God. It's not between JD and me.

Wise words in this thread - like Davo said lets not miss the point :)

John 7:53-8:11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]


 53Then each went to his own home.

John 8

 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

 11"No one, sir," she said.
      "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."






The woman was possibly a prostitute since the accusers did not bring the man involved. These scribes and Pharisees were strong believers in following the letter of the law. One verse to which they could apply their action is Leviticus 20: 10 which states that adulterers were to be put to death. They overlooked Deuteronomy 1: 16, 17 in which Moses advised his judges to judge righteously. Probably, they were less concerned about the woman than in trying to find a cause against Jesus.

Jesus had the men convict themselves and release the woman. They were not prepared to claim sinlessness. They knew that they were wrong and thus lost what they had hoped to gain. By allowing the woman to speak, Jesus prepared her for His response.

Jesus let her know that she was doing wrong. He gave her the opportunity of changing her life. At another time, He said that it is the sick, not the well, who need a physician (Matthew 9: 12). In this situation, He applied that statement. He forgave the woman. Now, it was up to her to respond.

Too often, we are like the scribes and the Pharisees in this story. We are ready to accuse others unjustly of wrongdoing. We fail to see that we, ourselves, are guilty of sins. Judging is necessary in life, but it must be done fairly. Even as we judge, so we shall be judged (Matthew 7: 2). Sometimes, our motives for judging are for improper purposes as in this story.

We must be prepared to help people who are ignorant of many things in life as Jesus did here. We may never know what effect we have had in the lives of those who have done wrong. Salvation for those persons result from our efforts. However, the ultimate decision to change has to be that of the other persons. I hope that the adulteress accepted what Jesus told her and responded positively.

Thom,

I'm really glad that you expanded your first reply beyond the Campolo quote. I can't say that I completely agree, but I appreciate the tone and approach of your argument. You have given me some things to think about.

For the record, I would never say so-and-so can't be a Christian because he/she does X. I was addicted to pornography for about a decade after becoming a Christian. Believe me, I know that Christians still can do some really filthy crap and that God's grace is the only thing that I can cling to.

I think what bothered me in the "cussing" part of this thread is that folks appeared to be defending the "right" of Christians to use a word that I consider profane. To me, that's saying a sin isn't really a sin. Tying it to the good that those same people do still makes no sense to me.

I don't know JD or Chad. I hope that they are Christians. Folks who know them better than I believe so. Either way, I leave the final judgment in God's hands.

No I didn't Davo. I said if they want to be REGARDED that way. I can't judge their souls, and while I have an issue with swearing in public as an artist, I am in no place to even cast a stone. Face it, a lot of people (and I'm not even talking about Christians here) will assume that if you're swearing it up with the best of 'em that you can't be any different then they are (ie. practicing Christians). Many people regard you according to your actions. So they should I suppose. But I wasn't judging them, only stating their actions could be misinterpreted by Christians and non-Christians alike.

Anyways...I'm sorry for probably stepping in and speaking my mind that way. I was just frustrated and empassioned by my own convictions --- the same way HELD and Davo were. I can appreciate their comments and indeed understand their points. Even say there is some validity to their respective claims.
I apologize if I seemed judgemental. I just think its the lack of control over the 'littlest things' that gives us such problems as Christians down the road.

What,exactly, does saying a swear word reflect about your heart?  You're seriously misapplying that scriptue,imo. (And the one about the talents,too..)
 
Swearing is a bad habit Dave, nothing more. And it shouldn't be judged any more harshly than we judge the smokers or overeaters in our church.

My point is we're not "putting ourselves in charge of" so many big issues in our own lives & in the world, that swearing is miniscule by comparison.  it's straining on a gnat,imo.

At this point I would like to remind people that this is EXACTLY why we don't have these debates on a regular basis. The ONLY reason why this one is still going on is that it is relevant to dance music in some round about way.


I don't think I am. Sorry. As far as the reflection of your heart, it's normally the context the swear is used in. Find me an example of a swear word in which it doesn't show that you have room to grow in your walk with God and I'll change my position. I'm guilty of this too. I say crap at least 50 times a day. It's a bad habit like you say, but it is also a reflection in my heart that I still have areas in my life I need to control.

It is from this position that I am looking at this issue.


You mean it shouldn't be judged more harshly than the activities of those who do not treat their bodies like a holy temple? Then what I have been saying is EXACTLY in line with scripture if you want to take it to that level.


Being overweight myself... I have room to grow here as well.


You must have missed where I said "Hey, it's between JD and God not JD and me." I'm not going to come down on someone who is cussing. No more than I did which was simply to say "JD you could have used other words than that. I don't think it was the best move and shows a lack of creativity."

JD disagreed. We moved on. I still bought the CD :) None of us are JD's keeper. Only JD can do that. Nothing is wrong with me telling him I disagree with something he is doing/has done/wants to do. I can't stop him and I'm not going to try.

Bottom line: Do not let the other bigger problems in the world keep YOU from taking care of the little ones in YOUR life.

I think it's healthy to talk about this stuff. Noone's mad here. It's just a discussion. We're all grownups.  ;D


I don't think I am. Sorry. As far as the reflection of your heart, it's normally the context the swear is used in. Find me an example of a swear word in which it doesn't show that you have room to grow in your walk with God and I'll change my position. I'm guilty of this too. I say crap at least 50 times a day. It's a bad habit like you say, but it is also a reflection in my heart that I still have areas in my life I need to control. [/quote]

let me put it this way: swearing at someone who cuts you off in traffic is different than telling dirty jokes & hitting on the secretaries at your office.  the latter,imo, reflects a much more serious condition of the heart than letting the F-bomb slip.





i know it's scriptural. i'm talking about consistency here.  most pastors will not even broach the subject of smoking,because they realize that there are so many more important issues in life.  example: if you're yelling at your kids & not raising them right, who cares if you're a non-smoker?  if you are raising your kids right & are mature, you already know smoking is bad for you...

-Stryper was CRUCIFIED for smoking & having a drink now and then...yet Amy Grant can get divorced twice and (allegedy) have an affair and get away with it.

-a christian hiphop artist kevin let me listen to lost his major label record deal because he sang about the real struggles in his life with women,drugs,etc.  yet the president of the evangelical association is off doing drugs & having a gay affair for a couple years and NOONE in the organization has the guts to say anything...

**MY ENTIRE POINT: Our priorities are off when it comes to these kind of things. We need to root out the petty jealousies & egos & power trips in our local churches instead of continually picking new whipping boys who are dong things we don't like because their failings are easier to see.



no, nothing is wrong with you telling him as a friend. my point (which seem to have been missed), is people piling on about something that is such a little thing compared to the stuff we as christians ought to be worried about.

besides, the solution is to pray for those guys to make wise decisions and to continue to follow God. (Lord knows, i'm sure they need it..as we all do).  8)

Please explain that then to the people who have sent me PMs about it then.


Again, this adds fire to this issue. The use of the word in Le Disko is premeditated in every way. It's not a slip. It's calculated. So... it's use falls exactly into the category you agree is a problem.


I'm not up on my Stryper history, but from the quotes I've seen, they admit it was not a drink every now and then. It was alcoholism. As for Amy, what affair? When was the first divorce??? She's ONLY had one. Period. And... for the most part... Amy has been crucified publicly by MANY Christians, just none in the industry.


Dunno know about Kevin and last I checked that president was removed from office immediately once his sins were made public. A LOT was said about it in fact. You may have just missed it. CNN and the main stream media made sure the world knew that this Christian was a hypocrite. What they forgot to mention was that in many ways we all are.


Well... that's your point ;) Mine is that we need take care of the faults in our lives since we can control them. Beyond that, it's up to God. If we simply cleaned up our own problems with our walk then your point would be resolved as a byproduct.


*sigh* you know... when this debate got started, this wasn't even really the issue, but some wanted it to become one. People don't like the use of the f-bomb, they mention it, and then people attack them for mentioning and wondering why it had to be used rather than the needs of say the homeless. Come on. There wasn't even that type of connection.

You talk about not blowing things out of proportion all while doing EXACTLY that! Do what you preach ;)


On this... we can agree :)

love ya man.

GO BEARS!  ;)

oops..another bad post!  teehee!  :smiley8: