I am honestly asking this because I really want to move forward in my career as a DJ. Every event, minus maybe two, that I have ever spun at, I was an opening act. While that's fine and all, I believe that I have the required "whatever" to be a headliner now. I have worked my butt off since 1999 on many projects from radio to mixsets to (trying) production to event planning and promotion.

There's something I have not done that I regret.
 - sending demos to labels, promoters, etc. In my defense, I was told that doing that would be just as good as throwing the cd away as most demos never get listened to and end up in the trash. I was told the best way to get your demo heard was to get them in the hands of the people in the clubs and build a buzz from within those who go to the clubs.

I have promoted the heck outta myself and have gotten little or no results. I know guys who eventually do become headliners have played like 100 shows a year or whatever. I'd love that to happen, but I am just not getting booked.

I guess the question I should be asking is how can I get booked when nobody will give me the time of day when I try to get booked to their show?

I just want to play out and be respected for what I am contributing. My entire being longs to do this full time.

I think really you need to also produce amazing songs as well. Cause all headliners have had a great song or do have a song at the moment that everyone listens too. I don't think you can get to the top solely on mixing. People get to know you through your songs

not entirely true. I know a few dj's who do not produce who are considered headliners. If being a solid producer is the key to being a headliner, I might as well hang up my headphones. I simply do not have the talent or the money for that.

You just have to keep digging.  Honestly,  persistance is the key.  Keep playing opening slots and seriously try to buckle down on production.  Discouragement is energy,  rejection is fuel.  Play the law of averages,  and eventually you'll get a bit.  Remember that it takes 27 points of contact for someone to make a yes or no decision.  Also remember that in music,  no actually means "maybe."

I don't know what this means.

good advice, profound even.

Break all the other DJ's fingers youll get all slots hahahaha thats just sick!!!!!

:laugh:

Chris,

   I hate to break this to you man, but if you are attempting to make a living as a full time EDM dj, there is a 99.9% chance you are completely wasting your time. The plain fact of the matter is that most of the "name" guys you think are out there doing that as their sole source of income, aren't. As a matter of fact, I don't know if I've ever met a guy living much above the poverty level who worked solely as a club dj. The guys who are out there touring fight and scrap for bookings, using connections they make by promoting their own events, or through making their own music, or owning a label, or printing flyers, or hosting a successful radio show, and most of the time more than one of the aforementioned. The reality of the situation is that club deejaying is not a wise career path in any sense unless you just don't care about financial prosperity. If you incorporate one of the other industry related ventures and perform both at a high level you will likely see more doors open up, but even then it will be tough with long odds against measurable success. I recommend pursuing it as a hobby or part time thing, letting the "full time" dream go, and just give it your best shot in your spare time. If you strike gold, find a niche, or discover an angle to success, then you can jump on board 100% at that time. Otherwise, you are likely just in for plenty of disappointment and frustration.

what he means by 27 points of contact is this. when a person doesnt know you, it takes 27 interactions (either by you or by others for you or listening to music, learning about you) to get a yes. at least most of the time.
try to open for a certain club on a regular basis, after a while you can start asking them for a headlining position.

I'm kinda wondering if there's a difference between a club dj and a rave dj. I always wanted to be a rave dj. I've never been to a rave but in my imagination it would seem to be more like a rock concert where the dj's are like characters in an epic story. The dj would be more like a storyteller and have more freedom to express his/her own style than at a club. Also, I was thinkin... what if a dj were to play hard to get? This could be a cheesy analogy but take dating for example. A guy is desperate for a date and he'll go after every girl that looks at him. A guy that appears desperate is usually a turn off, but the guy that could care less always has girls chasing after him. If you've got something that people want then let them chase you. Don't take anything and everything you can get. Be picky and choosy. Once they realize you're harder to get ahold of and if they really want you then they will be willing to do more to get you booked. I could be talking out of my tail but I'm a trucker so all I do is think about this stuff. I'm lookin at this as if I were a club owner or a rave promoter. I'm not lookin for a dj that sounds like every other dj, I'm lookin for someone that really knows how to take control of a crowd and brings his own style to the table.
Anyway... I'll shut up now. I really don't have a clue.

Well back in the day a headliner was considered someone who had at least 5 good records out.  There are many other factors, but if you haven't had a residency or produce, your really not even close.  Its tough really, but you got to do the little things if you want to get out there.  I think the best way is production, and getting in with labels that have connections with the clubs and people in the industry.  .02

Back in my clubber/raver days there was really only one local DJ I can think of who was not a well known producer in the local scene who could draw big enough crowds to be a headliner (Jimmy Joslin), and even he ended up pretty much having to put out a mix CD to keep up with the producer/DJs in the area--not to mention the fact that he was a 20+ year veteran DJ working the same local area the whole time.  Even the popular resident DJs at the local clubs were never headliners at any local events unless they were also a producer (i.e. DJ Icey, Baby Anne, Magic Mike), and even a lot of the popular residents who were producers weren't exactly headliners.  Shoot even Baby Anne was on about her 3rd mix CD before she was a headliner--except at one of her own CD release parties.

However, I can think of a couple local DJ/producers who sort of cheated -- they simply remixed a track that was somewhat popular in Europe but hadn't quite made it to the States yet, and released it on their own label.  I don't know for sure, but I would venture to guess that it was a bootleg remix rather than a licensed legal release.  And honestly, I loved the track when I thought it was their own original piece of work (was not marketed or labeled as a remix). Then I heard the original and realized just how close it was.  And then I liked the original more and never spun the remix again.  To this day it collects dust in a bin in a closet and will remain to do so.  But, it did the trick in getting them that "producer" level of exposure and they did seem to become more well known locally and get more gigs, at least for a little while.

Other than that, the only real headliners from anywhere around here were live acts (i.e. Prophecy Collective, Spacemen, Ford, [and my personal favorite] Rabbitt in the Moon).  Most of the rest of the headliners that came to town were from across the Atlantic somewhere, with the exception of the likes of The Crystal Method.

Of course, I'm also going by memories from the shows I actually bothered to go to, so I might be a bit off in my perception of things, too.  There were a lot names I just never made it out to see.  Which I guess goes to show how well of a headliner they turned out to be.

On a side note, I was billed as a headliner for a rave in Tampa once (though I would never claim to be a headliner DJ).  Good times.  I guess God had different plans for me, though, 'cause He got a hold of me not much longer after that and I never played another rave again.  I was under the perception back then that it would be wrong of me to be involved in such activities, knowing that the better I did my job, the more someone was going to enjoy their roll, trip, drunkeness, etc.  Now I realize that salt that stays in the jar doesn't do anyone any good, but that's a whole other convo . . .

Anyways, my point is just that headliner DJs are almost always, with few exceptions, also well-known producers.  The best DJ I've ever had the privilege of knowing (DJ Soul) could spin the likes of Icey, Baby Anne, or ANY of the other headliners I've seen in the breakbeat genre (which absolutely ruled Central Florida in those days, and is still very popular here) right out of the club on any given night, but never seems to get the respect he deserves because he doesn't have the celebrity factor (although I've heard that that is not true in Brevard County, where I've heard he is very respected in the local scene).  Sure, he's headlined some events, but nowhere near as many as Icey.

In fact, a DJ who started spinning last year but was previously a well-known producer will usually draw a bigger crowd than a veteran DJ who's never produced a well-known track--whether a remix or an original.  Take the Crystal Method for example.  When they started touring as DJs, no one seemed to know if they were any good at it or not, but they still drew big crowds because they were The Crystal Method (and for the record, were actually pretty good DJs, too).

Jimmy Joslin is frickin amazing!

It's time to learn then.

You talk to someone at least 27 times before they start to "recognize" you. You network. You make sure that your name is on the tip of their tongue whenever they think of DJs.

Throwing a promoter a demo cd is a waste if you don't follow up with that promoter. Period. It's the follow up that puts value in that demo cd.

Here I am, giving advice when I don't DJ out. The thing is though, I network. I network A LOT. Now... I am blowing that a bit right now b/c I keep telling ppl I'm too busy right now. It's true, but it's still not the best thing to do.

I also don't keep making posts on the net asking how move to a headliner spot every few months.

I'm not picking on you for that Chris, but the first step to being that headliner is to believe that you can be and to exude that. I'm not talking ego, but I am talking about a professional attitude.

I agree.  Also a very cool dude.  Very nice and down to earth.  I knew him for months as "Jimmy" -- the guy who played rock music for nickel beer at Big Belly Brewery -- before I even found out he was Jimmy Joslin.  When I found out he was the Jimmy he seemed rather surprised I would be impressed by that.

Confidence.  The sort that can be seen by others, but not to the extent that it becomes arrogance.  Just confidence.



An after thought: I was just thinking about AK1200.  He's from the same suburb of Orlando I live in (Apopka).  If you read a recent bio on him it might list his 'credentials' somewhere and will sometimes say something like: "Residency: No thanks."  First time I saw that I thought to myself, "Yeah, easy for him to say."  But it wasn't always like that for him.  That guy, whom I have mad respect for as a DJ, started out spinning in the local mall.  Yes, that's right, I said mall.  As in shopping mall.  How's that for a 'residency'?  And he was spinning DnB when no one around here knew what that was.  People outside the EDM scene still don't know what that is.  My point is this: He started out small, but he married his genre, supported it, worked it, networked, and held down his residency--or whatever else it was he was working at/on at the time--with excellence.  Now, I don't agree with the man's spiritual views, but he's got the humble thing down better than most Christians do, and that's a shame.  It's worked to his benefit, too, as I'm sure you can tell.  I bet there isn't a single DJ on this board who doesn't know who AK1200 is--now.  A lot of headliners have devoted their lives to their craft (even if they are holding down a job or running a business "on the side", which many are).  AK1200 is no overnight success.  It took him years of really working hard, not just at DJing, but at networking and supporting a genre no one even seemed to know about at the time.

You also need to consider the correct frame of reference though. These guys you are talking about are extremely talented, and central florida was on fire for club music back then. Drum&bass wasn't huge, but everybody down there was in to hearing good djs in good venues. That era in that location provided a setting that launched a lot of careers. Im not convinced that "thing" is happening anymore. Oh, and AK1200 was a big-time remixer even in the 90's.

If you look at most successful headliners, they started out as awesome openers.

Keep opening.  Be the best warmup dj out there.  Set an atmosphere that sets up the headliner to succeed.  Eventually headliners will request you to be their opener.  As your name starts to spread around you will get your break. 

Bill, I don't think that "thing" is happening anymore either.  But doesn't that just reinforce the idea that to be a headliner it takes a lot of hard work.  Even the guys who made it when the local scene was ripe had to work harder than everyone else did.

As for the "keep opening" advice -- I think that's it.  All those headliners from the Cent FL area I've mentioned did that for a long time.  And it wouldn't hurt if connected with a headliner and toured with them.  That's what D:Fuse did.  If it weren't for all the exposure he got opening for Oakenfold all over the place, most people who know him now never would have heard of him.  I first heard of D:Fuse by going to see Oakey during Spring Break at Daytona (600 North -- ah the good old days, lol).  I've seen him more times than just about any other DJ now--plus I bought his CD when it came out and even have a couple of his tracks on vinyl.  All because he kept on opening.

Ive been warming up for people for ages - im only now getting the headline bookings : )

for some reason ive always found the challenge of warming up more interesting.............

While I'm thinking about it... what does it mean to headline?

Is it something consistent or just every now and then.

Kenneth Thomas is an opener, but sometime he headlines.

Oakenfold will never open again... or will he? I haven't seen his schedule lately.

the other question...

why do you want to be a headliner?

While you're at it, Dave, what about:

What caliber event?

Its DJ Reborn Hi from Reborn hahaha

Dave,

I think Chris has dreams of being the "superstar dj".

The ONLY way to become a headliner is by opening.....Unless it's your event and you don't care about making money...LOL!

The story about AK1200 reminds me of D:Fuse...He started as a mobile DJ...In fact,  Dustin Fuseler was nationally respected for being a high quality interactive wedding DJ way before he gained any success as D:Fuse.

Every time I think about Jimmy Joslin though...I'm reminded of this one time at Vinyl in Huntsville,  AL.  it was the owner's,  Danny C,  birthday.  Jimmy and I were standing in the DJ booth with Danny,  pouring vodka into people standing below the booth mouths.  Fun times!

I've been getting to know alot of djs around vancouver here, and so many of them have been openers for life, ie 10 years running.   they're motivated and amazing djs, but because they're good opening djs they dont get booked for anything else.   so i agree with your statement to a point, i just don't think its the only equation in the book.

another thing to think over is making sure that you have the crowd really bouncing when you had over the reigns. that way the promoters know that you can get the crowd going.

Joel...I'd say they either lack that "something" it takes to make that step,  or they lack the drive it takes to jump to the next level.  Everyone who's become a major DJ has spent a significant amount of time opening.  It's just the proper way to hone one's craft.  Opening is WAYYY more difficult than headlining. 

i'm not arguing the process or that its more difficult to open, but if you are an opening dj you are playing a certain energy or a certain sound and just as it is difficult to switch genres up as a producer, its the same for opener to headliner.  if you have a reputation for being a good opener, you're more than likely going to be booked for more opens than headlines, at least in vancouver anyway.  victoria, nanaimo or whistler, different story.  there's actually room to build up in those towns, but vancouver is run by several DJ's who run their own nights as apposed to promoters who book them.  So these DJ's turn their backs on anyone who has potential to rock rooms.  If you play well in Vancouver as a newcomer, you probably won't play again unless you find obscure indie places in houses.   so in the case of vancouver, you will NEVER be a headliner unless you are famous and from out of town or country.  That and not that I'm a good DJ, but my first gig I headlined with Ike, now I can't get opening gigs.  In my case I'm trying to go in reverse almost so I can build up my experience.  Vancouver is to new DJs and openers, like Nazareth was to Jesus.   If you don't believe me, ask Shiloh or Sonic Union.

Joel,

It's a lot like that here in Jacksonville as well. All this drive and dedication and time served stuff sounds great, but it's not all grounded in fact. Being a shrewd businessman and learning how to sieze your own piece of the pie is the only way you can really make it in the nightlife business... and it aint easy, even with talent.

Bill..

I've dealt with that guy that kinda runs the show down in Jacksonville...Can't remember his name,  but he does shows at Bourbon Street/The Blue Room...Cocky little dude from my experiences.

Joel...

Vancouver sounds a good bit like Atlanta,  which is almost exactly the same situation that it is in almost any city.  If you're not in the clique,  you're S.O.L.  Ask Kenneth Thomas....he had the same situation in Detroit.
The Solution?
Find a small venue where you can do something.  Work your tail off to promote it...Then move on to bigger venues.  You already have one leg up on ol KT because you've already broken into the producers circle.  It took him a while to get through that one.  If you'd like to talk to KT about it,  just PM me and I'll shoot you his number.  I know he'd love to hear from you.

My current issue?
I'm not having to simply build a group of people who like to hear me play EDM,  but rather simply a group of people who like to hear EDM.  Isn't easy,  but isn't impossible either.  I'll be happy to give ya whatever advice/help I can as well.

OK I'll just keep plugging away at it.

I'm not so sure that it's way more difficult to open than headline. The headliner has a certain reputation or expectation to uphold. The opener can pretty much get away with anything as long as the floor is moving. The headliiner has the aura that better be fulfilled or people will not want to pay to hear him/her again. I think the key is getting tracks released and lots of networking. I've seen plenty of "headliners" that are definitely nothing special behind the decks, so why are they there? Because they've either A) put out a significant amount of good tracks or B) because they've convinced someone that they are something special and deserve to be there. I also agree that confidence is key, not arrogance, but confidence that whenever you play and before or after whomever, you can rock it with your own style. Cutting out a niche and standing out from the typical DJ of your genre can make a big difference.

Some "auras" are very easily upheld.  i.e. Oakenfold (all he has to do is play a bunch of the same sounding stuff without trainwrecking), Digweed (he just has to sample the latest from his own label), Tiesto (Oakenfold all over again, just a slightly different flavor), DJ Icey ( :laugh:), Dave Richards (who's that?), etc., etc., etc.

Just saw Icey last weekend,....yeah I remembered why I stopped listening to him... its like he plays the same set almost every time I see him.

incorrect. it is FAR harder to get a crowd moving then to keep a crowd moving. you can play filler after filler once a crowd is ready, but to get them ready you have to build it slowly, you have to know when to drop a filler and when to leave it abit more mellow...
and i would take oneels advice, hes been doing this for alot longer then most of us have.

Filler . . .hmmm.  Reminds me of Oakey. :laugh:

Maybe I wasn't clear. I agree that choosing the right tracks at the right time is important as an opener and you're right it is easier to make a crowd move that is already sweating. My point is there is not the expectation of the opener as with a headliner, that is all. A lot of times an opener doesn't have the pressure of playing to a packed floor, if he/she can get the place bumping that is a bonus. Also, what about the headliner that plays house and goes after the opener killing it with dnb? Opener plays what he wants, headliner has to make the smooth transition and keep the crowd. That is certainly more difficult than dropping whatever you feel like with no expectations

youre right, headliners do have an expectation. but its the sort of expectation like, at my job, being able to work a UPS workstation (i can). its my job and ive done it long enough so that i am expected to do it right.

however, it isnt a bonus if an opener gets the crowd bumping. its his job. secondly, as an opener, it is your job to open for the headliner. the headliner is more important then you are. if the headliner is going to be playing house, you cant play dnb, you get to play house. you get to play lower bpm, less energetic, same genre.
think of it this way, as an opener, you serve the headliner and his needs. if he is playing 130 house, you have to play mid 120s house. you dont get to choose.

if you cant be trusted to open properly, how can you be trusted to headline?

also, by filler i mean floorfiller. never play subpar music as filler.

Openers do one thing. They make the headliner shine. That's it. That's their purpose. If the crowd is in a great mood, it doesn't matter how bad the headliner is doing. They'll have a great time. If the opener sucks... don't expect the headliner to do well.

That's called either a stupid promoter or an arrogant opener.

Getting the floor to move requires great skill.  A good opener knows how to set a mood,  build momentum on a floor,  and have the floor primed to just a touch before blowing up when they go off.  They hand over a floor ready to blow up to the headliner.

Headlining just requires getting up and doing your thing.  Opening requires you to mold your thing to compliment someone else's thing.

It's not rocket science and it's basically the same thing as any type of opening job be it rock or edm. Openers create anticipation. That's it.

My thoughts exactly.

Alright, first of all I'm not sure if there is anyone posting in this thread that can talk from true experience about being a "headliner" in the likes that we are speaking, with the exception of maybe Joel, and I am including myself in that.
 

Dave, I know you're the authority around here on a lot of things, but that comment in my opinion is just ridiculous. I've seen openers suck many times and the headliner kill it and I've also seen headliners clear the floor after a good opener.

True if the promoter knows what he's doing he organizes his talent wisely, however why should an opening DJ play something other than his own genre unless that was requested of him by the promoter from the get go? If a promoter told me I could open for LTJ Bukem, BUT I would have to play dnb. I probably would tell him no thanks, since I play house. Of course I would love to open for him, but I wouldn't be willing to sell out my sound.  As a promoter I wouldn't expect the opener to "tone it down" one bit. The headliner is the professional. If the opening DJ blows it up,  great. Let the headliner do what he's getting paid the big bucks to do: create a frenzy on the dancefloor. All this about, the opener's job is to make the headliner shine.. blah blah is crap in my opinion. Why do you think these guys are headliners? Not because they toned it down or played some other genre they didn't want to play. It's because they themselves carved out a niche, their own unique sound and people now want to book them for them.
 
Getting back to what is more difficult. As I said, I'm not sure if any of us can speak from experience, but the headliner definitely has the reputation to uphold. The opener has a chance to shine, which people may remember or he can suck and people will probably forget anyhow as soon as the headliner goes on. If the headliner is terrible, you better believe people will remember. A little more pressure on them.   
     

Well... Bill Sikes, Oneel and Matt Hyatt all have a ton of experience both as promoters (well... maybe not Matt), producers (well... not Bill) and djs as both openers and in some cases headliners.

I'd listen to them and Joel above everyone else on this thread.


If an opener sucks, the headliner has to do more work to pull it off. If the opener is better than the headliner, then the headliner didn't need to be paired with that opener and it's the promoter's fault. Heck! In both case's it's the promoter's fault. 


Why would a promoter ever book a DJ that didn't play well with the style of the headliner???


I wouldn't take the job b/c that's a stupid promoter.

If I was the stupid promoter and you came in and played something you weren't contracted for (and it would be in the contract) I wouldn't pay you. Period.


You're sound? You have a sound? You have a unique sound that hundreds of other DJs don't have already and you are still an opener? How often do you play out? I'm honestly sure it's more than me, but can you honestly say your sound is unique when you play the same music that is available to just about everyone who plays your style?


Any opener who doesn't view himself as a professional will never become the headliner. Period. You can't afford to not have that attitude.


As Oneel pointed out, most of them are headliners because they carved out that niche AS OPENERS. You have to develop it somewhere. If to big names are playing in different clubs on the same night, the opener could make a difference in which people go to. The opener has the ability to set the vibe for the club. You are discounting the opener's job way way to much.

You know, it was a long time after I first came to TF that I read anything Dave posted in relation to, well just about anything, that I actually agreed with.  But, I must say I agree with that entire last post. :-X

See! I'm not a nut job. Well... a total nut job anyway.

I don't know if I'd go quite that far

lol.... I second that ;) Headliners job are made easy EVENTUALLY, because of the years of slugging away at the early stage. Building the sort of momentum that carries them through the rest of their carriers. Opening is a challenge, for the reasons stated above.

"How to DJ Properly" - considered by many to be the DJ's Bible - says if you're goal is fame, as a DJ, create a track. If your goal is to be the best DJ, kiss the fame goodbye.
While there are exceptions to every rule, this is how it goes for the majority of this industry. If you're not going to create tracks, I think you've got to be a VERY skilled DJ. We're talking industry changing, music style creating. Technical prowess... way above technical competence.

I had the opportunity of opening for Delirious in 2006, to a crowd of 3000 rock hungry kids. I played progressive house. It worked out alright (http://www.jpuddy.net/media/videos/opening-for-delirious-easter-2006/), the energy built appropriately, the crowd was reasonable (there were less people standing still at the end, than at the beginning). Delirious thanked me afterwards, said they totally digged it.
But 3000 people were also shouting "DJ! DJ! DJ!" when I got on stage. So they were amped to begin with. If anything, I calmed them down at first.

Right now, I'm working on getting a residency in our city. For me that means hitting all the pubs and clubs in town, seeing what they play. I'm also getting my head into Reason.

Dave, I'm not here to prove anything to you or anyone else. You do not know me or my history. Your comment about "do I have my own sound..blah blah.." maybe you didn't read the beginning of my post when I said I included myself in this. As a matter of fact, I do think you can carve out your own niche and have your own sound. Look at Joel or Tim Richards or Pete Le Freq, I know they are all on here. Yes, they produce electronic dance music, it's all EDM unless you want to play rock or jazz or something, but they certainly have their own "unique" sound. Maybe it's somewhat similar to some others but they have a sound that is theirs. I know when I pick up one of their tracks, what to expect. They work hard to produce tracks, get their music out there, and network. Who is anyone on here to say Chris can't make it as a headlining DJ? They all start somewhere. I had a few points, that I am trying to make and pudd just reiterated one in his post above. You want to be the big headliner, put out some quality tracks then do a lot of networking. You can disagree with me all you want on what is more difficult opening or headlining. I'm sure it takes hard work and slugging away, as pudd puts it, to get there. I just don't think once you're on top that it's all nice and easy in comparison

I think for some it is nice and easy.  Oakenfold never has to buy a track, only adds a select few to his playlist annually, and everyone knows that about him and expects it from him, so he doesn't have to work very hard at pleasing his audience.  Instead, he just gets drunk off champagne and tries not to trainwreck.  Simple.  Others have to work much harder to keep ahead of everyone else because, well frankly, their name isn't Paul Oakenfold (so not everyone and their brother is sending them new & unreleased tracks in hopes of getting it spun by a big-timer).
"Headliner" is a vast category.  On the high end of that category you have the guys that really can just take it easy if they want to.  Oakey, Digweed, PvD, Carl Cox, Tiesto, Rennie Pilgrem, Adam Freeland, Ritchie Hawtin, etc., etc.  Not that those guys don't work hard, just that they probably wouldn't lose that much of an audience if they played the game like Oakey because, let's face it, their name recognition is just phenomenal and that's what draws crowds in the end.  True, they got their through hard work, and many of them choose to work hard still, but Oakey has proven they don't have to.
Then, on the other end of the "headliner" spectrum you have the guys that headline the smaller events put on by the local promoters who are themselves trying to carve out a niche in the game.  Those guys are walking the line between headliner and opener most of the time.  When none of those big shots I mentioned above are in town, then these are the headliners.  But, as soon as one of those guys does come to town, now they're openers again.  Those guys have to work hard at what they do because if they don't there is always some opener busting his but networking and making tracks and promoting himself well to the right people who will gladly step up and fill that lazy guy's shoes at the next event.

ask oneel his djing experience. i value his opinion on DJing in HIGH regard, above pretty much everyone else.
i think chris can definatly make it to headlining. im sure of it, the question is, can the scene support it? i have been told several times that if i really work on it (which i am workin on) i can make it too. but not in richmond, at least not with what i tend to play (electro/prog house). but i can probably get away with some gigs playing what i play sometimes (funky house) or, like im doing, start DJing disco. which ill probably start doing. get a tusday disco night or something, i can probably get that going.

rely on oneel, he has never steered me wrong before.

FOOD FIGHT!

Another thing, that I am loath to bring up here... but is a reality, is the favour of God. When it comes to your profession, or your desired profession, I am very much of the group that says, "Go and get trained." Do your homework, do the due diligence and make a serious effort, because there's credibility there, and I think it's critically important for Christians to have industry credibility.

But don't forget that God can and does open doors out of the blue, and can advance your situation beyond logical process. Joseph is a prime example of this, in the Bible.

Practically speaking, I'm just saying don't count God out of the equation. Listen to Oneel, Shiloh, Joel, the people who have worked hard to establish credibility, and follow their advice. But also spend time with the Lord, seeking his face and his direction. The right God inspired meeting can trump a lot of networking. That's not to say that networking is bad/pointless (far from it!), just keep God in the equation, and do your practical homework at the same time.

X 52billion

If God doesn't want it to happen,  it'll never happen.  It's always important to remember who is really in control.

Amen!

But... likewise, don't discount the advice of others just b/c God told you "x" would happen. Sometimes that advice is needed or "x" WON'T happen. You just have to be discerning with the advice you get.

I know. I'm just getting anal now :)

Getting?            :laugh:

hahahah!

TMI

Oh ok... fine. I was born this way. It's a defect. You just have to accept it.

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/conspiracy_theories.png)

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Aww. . . It's OK, Dave.  C'mere  :hug:  We've all learned to accept you the way you are (though we may still be praying that God will change you!). :laugh:

I think God truly wants me to be anal. I, like Paul, have prayed to have this thorn removed from my side... Oh wait... no I didn't. I actually ASKED to become anal ;)

Hi Bill, long time no see :)

It is possible to make DJ'ing your sole source of income, but that is not without it's difficulties. I know plenty of DJ's who make it there sole source of income but they are ether DJ'ing 7 nights a week for at least 2 to 3 hours a night OR they are not just DJ'ing in clubs but also at weddings and other events. There's nothng wrong in trying to pursue a goal but be aware very few DJ's make it big. Personally I prefer the style, music taste and attitue of the ones that don't 'make it'  8)

^ x2  good to see you're still kickin, bill!


let's step back and think about the question a second, shall we?

How do you go from being an opener to a headliner?


well, how do you go from being an unpaid intern to working at the company to becoming the management? 

1. tons of hard work. there's no way around it.  all the vision casting in the world isn't going to get you a gig... sacrifice and hard work will.  you absolutely have to get off the ground and get out there.

2. build a resume IE-take any gig, anywhere, for any amount of money.  offer to open for free if your name is on the flyer.  if you tell enough promoters that,

3. do what works   IE- if the net radio show isn't paying off in a certain time frame, DUMP IT.  If you're not a good producer, either get a writing partner, get better equipment, or forget it.  it's not going to lead you to bigger things. if it's a hobby, fine, but don't delude yourself that it's building to something bigger.
 (*just an FYI: most of the big DJs i've seen over the decades have been DJs first, and then learned to produce. i know it's different now,but it can be done)

4. take your resume around   once you have your name on some flyers, use that to get other gigs!
   Joel has a FANTASTIC example of how to work this: let's say you're the opening DJ in Toronto (since i know this side of his strange country  ;) ). you can't get a headlining gig in Toronto. What do you do?  go south to Sarnia, London, Even Detroit, and get a headlining gig at a small club.  Even open in those areas to build a buzz.

5. build upon what's working  so you're an opener 50 different times? open for bigger & better gigs.  example: would you rather headline to 50 people or be third bill for paul van dyk?


6. see step #1



you don't have to listen to me,but i've been a dj for almost 20 years now, and i've seen what works and what doesn't.

Thanks Davo. Some good advice there.

Davo, you left out networking. ;) You got the spam part right, but you flat out forgot the networking aspect. Also, you could do the net radio thing regardless. All you need to do is switch to podcasting and use that to distribute your live sets whenever you have one.

That's really the answer right there.  There was a time when someone could make a name for themselves based soley on thier spinning abilities.  Kimball Collins, Chris Fortier, Andy Hughes, Baby Anne and even AK1200 all built thier reputations on their mixing skills in the early 90's.  And I don't know when AK1200 was spinning in malls but I used to see the guy spinning on the back patio at the Edge back in 93 or so, so even he came up during that time period.  Thats all changed now.  You cannot build a reputation based on spinning alone anymore.  The scene doesn't support it these days.  You HAVE to produce to build a reputation beyond anything local.

In fact, if you look at some of the Central Florida artists that got big from just spinning back in the early 90's, even they didn't hit it REALLY big until they started to produce and release records.  Icey had a residency at the edge, but once he started releasing records,  (and particularly once he release "Tricks") he blew up.  Likewise for Fortier and his Fade releases.  And to go further I would say that only the successfull producers have gone on to have continued exposure in the scene over the years.  Case in point, if you ook at Kimball Collins he began producing and releasing music right around the same time, but his reputation really began to lose some steam around that time which is exactly the opposite of what anyone in Central Florida would have thought to be the case if you would have asked them who was gonna end up being a champion of the scene in the next few years at that time.

Why did that happen?  Because Icey had a new sound that stuck and launched that whole Florida breaks scene, while Fortier was just better at the trance sound than Collins was and has solidified his name much moreso than Kimball because of it. 

So you can try and build a rep as a headliner, but it will never go beyond some little local area thing unless you are producing music that gets picked up by DJ's around the world.  You do that, you break things open period.  Of course thats easier said than done as I can relate to the not having the money comment.

  I've been longing to really get into production for the last 4-5 years.  I was constantly working in Reason for about a year and half to two years, but had to lay it down for a while to finish school and have never been able to really pick it back up like I need to if I want to do it successfully, because I can't afford a controller or sound sets or anything for that matter.  I finally got a legal copy of Reason last year (as well as Recycle) but I feel like I'm extremely limited in what I can accomplish without a controller which I don't have the cash for right now, and haven't had since I started 5 years ago.  I haven't totally given up hope of being able to get the equipment I need to be able to pursue that passion like I want to, but I'm getting close to giving up.  Hell, I'm almost 35 years old.  How much longer to I have to really be able to do it?  (Sorry that last paragraph is off topic but I'm just venting my frustrations about it I guess) 

I guess here's my point: It's obvious that you have to produce now to make it. And while all those big names DJ'd first and produced second, they started a the time where it possible to be a DJ first and producer second.

Now, it's the opposite and there's not point arguing it any other way.

The days of the rock star DJ are over. The days of the producer as a band however are in.  You can be hired as a headliner easily if you have a string of hits... even if you can't DJ. Look at BT a few years ago when he started as a DJ. Everyone says he sucked. People still went to see him b/c he was BT. It was his music that got him that headlining slot as a DJ and not his ability to mix.

If you're talking *big* big, then I would argue that it has always been the case that producing has been an integral part of "making it."  Especially in the last decade, but even during the rave scene's heydey and probably even before that.

Back then it was entirely possible to build a reputation on the strength of your DJ-ing that could propel you to success in say a city or on a regional circuit of rave and club events, but putting out records (good records I suppose at that) was always the demarcating line between being one city's rave god, and being booked nationally and internationally.

You couldn't have one without the other, even though it's true what Dave says, you could be a DJ first and a producer second. 

But the point was you had to be both.

There's always exceptions though...I can think of at least one national-level DJ whose sales were comparable to Oakenfold in North America but who never seriously got into producing - Anabolic Frolic - but even then his rise to fame was on the basis of his connection to Moonshine Records and the Happy2beHardcore mix CD compilation he was putting together for them.  And that was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

The thing with Anabolic Frolic is he's the average raver's beginning and end to Hardcore.  They MAY know of Scott Brown or Hixxy,  but most people into electroic music only know of Frolic.  He's kindofan anomaly.

But,  is true...He did have success as a DJ without ever really getting into producing.

Oh totally. 

He and I attended the same landmark happy hardcore party in Toronto back in 1996 that got that particular scene rolling but while I was like, "eh, that was okay" he was like "cha-ching!"  and went on to build his empire, including a personality cult that rivaled Oakenfold and Jeff Mills.

If only I had thought to buy shares in funfur and plastic bead manufacturing companies!!!

i didn't use the word,but that's implied in the taking gigs anywhere,anytime, and taking your resume around...


as i said: "if it's a hobby, fine, but don't delude yourself that it's building to something bigger."


about producing: i agree to be huge you have to produce. BUT, we're talking about taking the first few steps to getting some headlining gigs, not headlining Movement in detroit.
  my point is that among the contacts that you'll meet by doing 100s of gigs there will be producers who can help you/work with you/etc. 

To get out of the local scene period... I'm not even talking headliner here, you NEED to be a producer. Period.

Networking is sooo much more than spamming people with your resume and demos. It's building a relationship with them. It's being a friend. It's literally investing in someone. When you invest time... real time, they will invest in you.

im pretty sure we should define local and regional.

Local = your metro area
Regional = two versions: a) within your state and the surrounding ones or b) within the ____ region of your state defined by geographical areas like Northwest or Southeast.

looks like im goin local in an area that isnt really local...

 8) I say keep being an opener, I think thats awesome. Your doing what you love, and actually doing it in front of people. [If] you never do get the chance to be a headliner, then thats ok too, but you never know it could happen. You have the experiance, and people skills to get the job done, and the integrity, and lots of knowledge you have of EDM makes you stand out. Heck the best way to start being a headliner would be throw your own event, where your the heading it, and that should work. A castthefire live event would be uber, and you have different DJ's play who are with CTF or bedroom DJ's a shot at actually doing a live set in front of people. Just an idea, I dont know anything about headlining, I just have ideas. :-X

I still stand by taking the headliners out and putting you in the spot light  :laugh:

mike, chris' desire is to be a headliner.. hence the thread.
a thought i just had, it may be necessary to go to another city to get a headlining spot... like im workin on getting into DC cuz richmond sucks.

OK I'm gonna sound harsh here, but that's a really dumb thing to say. When you are a headliner guess what? you get to (in your own words) "do what you love, and actually do it in front of people." Only difference between an opener and a headliner is the fact that MORE people pay attention to the headliner and the headliner gets paid more. Usually the opener gets low pay and sometimes, he's doing it for free. So why in my right mind would I want to stay an opener, dude?

Don't get me wrong, I like opening. However this is a career choice for me and in order to sustain your life in a career, you need to be able to make money to survive. hence the desire to be a headliner. I don't wanna be a superstar DJ. I just want to be able to make a living off this and every once in a while have someone come up to me and show some appreciation. That's it.

well that's why I am pursuing Kansas City. There ain't anything here in Topeka. KC is 2 hours away, but if I can get a regular paying gig, even at a bar, I'll take it. I hope this weekend in KC (Radiate) will help me get booked for more shows. It's a free gig for all involved, but we hope it leads to more events. I personally hope it leads to a regular paying gig.

yea man, i hear you. DC is 3 hours out for me. train is fairly cast efficient...

chris you're still in kansas, i thought you moved back to cali? maybe you moved back to kansas,i've been gone so long what do i know.
anyway, from being your not so distant brother to the south i can honestly say that unless you are in a HUGE city in our area (a dallas or a kcity) there's nothing for a scene around here. maybe kansas is a little different than oklahoma, i dunno, but we have NOTHING here, like little bars that have a dj night once a week is a huge thing to us.
i mean, like once a year a big name may come through, icey and irene have both been here in years past, so i know that they show up, but as far as anybody local being big, they all move away once they hit that point.
does jeremy dawson still live here? uh, no.
my friend dustin moved to orlando and he was one of the big name locals for awhile, he's producing and doing his own thing in florida now and doing well.
i just know that in okc there's not really a chance of making some serious dough at this, maybe kc is different (i'm sure it is, it's probably got like twice the people we do).
i hope i havent sounded discouraging, i'm not at all trying to be, heck i'm just a bedroom dj who will never be anything else because i choose not to be, it's my hobby, i enjoy it, and even after all these years of playing i still pretty much suck at it.
making a career out of this stuff is HARD work, and if you've got it in you, go for it.
if you want it, take it.
that's all the input i have, if i sound like a candy kid poser i'm sorry, it's just what i know  :smiley23:
Josh

I did move back to Cali for a short period of time about two years ago. I was attempting to be a cable installer working for Brain Scroggin's brother. That didn't work out for me and I couldn't find a good paying job, so I had no choice but to move back to Kansas in Feb 2007.

Kansas sucks for dance music, however Kansas City, MO (KCMO) has a pretty decent nightlife that welcomes dance DJ's from what I understand. It's mostly house and breaks, which is right down my alley.

yeah I know Dustin Skiles. he and I have done a show together and keep in touch often via email. His music shows up in my sets from time to time when he releases something new.

Like I said Kansas sucks, but KCMO has a decent amount of activity. I just got to figure out how to tap into it. I was supposed to be 4 years further than what I am now because when I first moved to Kansas, I was already booked in KCMO for an event by a fellow Tastyfresher who was throwing regular parties and then all of a sudden disappeared. That set me back real huge because I lost my local advantage. I am just now recovering from that.

No, you are being very realistic about what it's like in this part of the midwest.

Thanks. That's exactly what I am doing...or trying to do.

yea, i meant to say kcmo, i forgot that the two sides are completely different.
just keep working at it brosephus, you'll get there.
i may even drive up there and see ya when you hit it big, it's only like 13 hours (i think, i dont actually know)

If you can afford it and have the day off, you should come up for this thing we are doing tomorrow! LOL I know it's a long drive. Where are ya from? 13 hours sound a bit far from Oklahoma. I can drive from Topeka to Tulsa in 4 hours. Call me, my cell is 785-215-2680 I will get you a bed to sleep in, some food, and admission to Radiate.

well, if i was at home i would probably do that, but at the moment i'm stuck in biloxi ms. for training, and my car is at home tore up right now, so yea, i'm kinda bummed about that.
stuck here in biloxi which there isn't much left after katrina and no car, yea, i'm bored out of my ever loving mind.
someone in missisippi come play with me, please?  :'( :laugh:
Josh

ah