I heard that our world banking system almost completely collapsed a couple weeks ago.

Do you know how our banking system works?

Here's a video that can help explain it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy-fD78zyvI&feature=related

mmm, interesting stuff. I'm not sure about "our world banking system almost completely collapsed" though.

1) FACT: 99% of all the videos on youtube talking about this type of thing are made by ppl totally unqualified to make them.
2) FACT: It's not all about to collapse. We're a LONG way off from that. We MAY be entering a recession, but to do that, we have to have 2 quarters (6 months) of negative economic growth. We MIGHT be 3 months into that now and MOST of the recession talk is driven by the media during an election year.
3) FACT: What is going on right now is we are reaping what the banks and thousands of people bought into: Adjustable mortgages. From ANY position of intelligence, people should have KNOW that it was a DUMB idea to borrow money for 30-40 years on a variable interest rate. The banks that did this are reaping what they have sown and KNEW their clients wouldn't be able to pay them back when they gave the money out. Some will deservingly go out of business for this. In the end, we'll have a wiser more cautious banking system for a while, until they get stupid and greedy again.
4) Just start listening to Dave Ramsey. Follow his plan and you'll be debt free and have money saved up in case things tank again... or keep tanking.

Seriously, don't worry about this.

got a link to Dave Ramsey?  Yeah, its not that good right now, but no where near as bad as most think, have to agree with Dave on that.

hehe, try moving to a country with a TOTALLY different perspective, and see how healthy you feel your* economy is then.


*your meaning "your previous country," not America

www.daveramsey.com The nice thing is that the guy is a STRONG Christian and it comes across on his radio and tv shows which typically are not on Christian stations.

Jesus didnt have credit...

I read his total money maker-over book and it has completely changed the way that i handle/understand what i should do with my money.

i am currently in progress of becoming debt free, and am looking forward to financial freedom so i wont let money become such a big battle/struggle.

i would also HIGHLY recommend the basic principles that dave ramsey discusses in his books, and talk shows, etc.

In fact, a lot of the lenders that issued these types of loans are already out of business. I am a mortgage broker and am constantly being flooded with e-mails from lenders going out of business and changes in lending guidelines for the banks that have been able to stick around. I would agree with Dave, there is still not too much to worry about. The fact is we have already been through the worst of it. A good indication is the fed stepping in to help homeowners on the verge of foreclosure and bailing out the larger banking institutions. They are tightening the standards the lenders must adhere to and are finally requiring licensing and continuing education for people such as myself (something I feel is long overdue) The American economy is not as bad as the liberals would like to suggest. Rates are low and look to stay low for a while. The real estate bubble was destined to burst and it finally did... appraised values were inflated and banks became greedy while they could because investors bought into it. The banks will continue to be conservative in their lending practices until the investors start investing again. A correction in the market was bound to take place, as it has done in the past and will no doubt do again in the future. Any wise investor would tell you now is the time to buy in, get in while the market is low so you can reap the benefits.

Don't believe the liberal hype yo!

ps.. Another good resource is www.crown.org (a Christian perspective on investing and debt management) They have a great plan to put you on the road to financial freedom called the "money map" and also host a good radio show titled "Money Matters" that I regularly tune into

Neither did most Americans until probably the 60's. Things got really bad in the 90's with it.

[quote author=DJ Boywonder link=topic=11206.msg119404#msg119404
ps.. Another good resource is www.crown.org (a Christian perspective on investing and debt management) They have a great plan to put you on the road to financial freedom called the "money map" and also host a good radio show titled "Money Matters" that I regularly tune into
[/quote]

Crown is older and good. Ramsey's teachings are more "Secularized" but are based on Larry Burkett's (sp) and Larry is one of Dave's heros. Dave just gives you the principles w/o forcing scripture memory ;) There's some added benefit from Crown, but compare the 2 before you get started on one plan or the other.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article3570.html

http://www.strategicforesight.com/sw_bigquestions18.htm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north591.html

http://www.fin.gc.ca/taskforce/pdf/lafferty1.pdf

I don't know how you were able to come up with a statistic like that. Knowing man's unquenchable thirst for wealth and power, I don't see this video being too far fetched.



If our trust is in God, then we have nothing to worry about. But if we trust in man's system, we will be continually disappointed.

EASY... anybody can post on youtube. You don't have to be an expert. If I wanted to say the world was flat and do a documentary, I could do it and post it on youtube. Nobody could or would stop me. Period. There is no requirement that what is posted is accurate or truthful... just like TV and radio.


Um... right. So... why are YOU concerned about this? The Earth will continue to exist and God will still be in total control if our economy destroys itself.

Truthfully, the only way to solve this problem is to not bail ANYBODY out. If someone invested poorly, sucks to be them. The market will correct itself if left along. The more the Gov't and the Fed Reserve screw with it, the more likely it will be that the market heads to the destruction you are seeing.

Seriously, Dave Ramsey has talked extensively on his show about what's going on now. Listen to him, it will make sense.

BTW, it's the nature of the market to fluctuate. That means it's supposed to go up at times and down in others. It's a fairly "natural" cycle.

I think he meant was "how were you able to come to the exact amount of 99%."
That's some heavy number crunchy you have there. ;)

OK... how's this?

99% of what I've come across on youtube is junk from people who don't know what they're talking about... including this video.

If the chance to act upon it and make a difference should arise, we can then know what is happening and be a part of change. The youtube video states how usury was viewed as a moral dilemma and they may be right. Also, if part of the revolutionary war was to get rid of the recurring debt system that England had on them, maybe we should go back to our roots and stray from that system.

I know that youtube can't be trusted, just like any other website, any other biased news station, any other newspaper, or anything else for that matter. To make it even more complicated, there are con artists out there who fabricate news stories and get a news agency to show up and do a report on it and laugh later... You can't really trust anything. You just have to sift through it all and hope you find truth in what you observe.

I don't know if our economic system is going to collapse or not but I think it's good to be educated.

Just get educated by the right material. Look for things that take in account the entire history of our economy rather than just the last 10-20 years and the depression era. Most of what I see now is comparing today to the depression era and never taking a look at what happened in the 70's or any other decade.

It's shoddy reporting just like with the oil companies "record profits". Nobody asks to see if their profit margin has increased, which it hasn't... which means they are still only getting a 10% return on their investment. It hasn't grown, which means they aren't gouging us on the price. The response some people want to take is to seize the oil companies profits, but that only hurts ALL of us who have retirement plans b/c those plans heavily invest in oil companies (which means we all own a portion of them).

What's the whole story. Do the research. Be educated.

I don't think saying what Jesus did or didn't have is a legitimate criticism.  he probably didn't have running water, either...


our economy isn't going to collapse. it's econ 101:  the market is making a correction for a bad business model (IE sub prime loans).  people got greedy,and many of them got burned (including me. i'm losing my house because of it...)

a similar "correction" happened the tune of a trillion dollars to the savings and loan industry in the 80's-ealry 90's after they were deregulated & issued junk bonds... and it was just a blip on the economy's radar.

just an FYI: much of the sub prime lending practices started because of the gov't interferring with lenders (IE fair lending act *i think that's what it was called,but dont quote me on the name of it*), and making them lend a certain percentage of their money to undeserving (poor) people....

i'd highly suggest reading something like the wall street journal. although they are of a conservative bent, they have EXCELLENT economic,et al reporting.  8)

Actually, WSJ is a weird bag. Their political editorial section is conservative, the rest of the paper has a reputation of being one of the more liberal papers out there.

Davo's dead on though. So... after the Gov't forced encouraged these banks to start lending to ppl who normally wouldn't be qualified for a loan (at all or of the size they acquired), now they feel they must take more firm and direct control of our banking system AND bail out these banks. *sigh*

I'm tired of social conservativeness. People don't have a RIGHT to a home they can't afford to have. The gov't doesn't have the RIGHT to... nevermind.

Just to throw another log on the increasingly econo-political fire we've got going on here, what's your definition of social conservativeness Dave?   ;)

Bush & McCain for starters. They're different branches of the same tree. After all, it's Bush's idea to do this new control thing with the fed reserve.

davo, have you tried talking to a mortgage professional about trying to keep your house? Getting back to "the government intervening" there is a bail out program est by the fed for ppl such as yourself that have fallen behind on payments of subprime loans due to recent adjustment of the rate. If your mortgage was current prior to the adjustment and fell behind because of it, you may qualify for it. It's an FHA program, you should look into it if it's not too late.

It's the Fair Housing Act and you are somewhat correct. The banks are required by the gov't lending practices to extend loans to certain percentages of people in LMI (low to moderate income) areas. It is not necessarily poor people, because they still need to qualify for the loan based on their income and debt, but there are actually regulations in effect to make sure these banks are not "redlining" certain geographic areas. I agree with you, the gov't interferring to begin with is unfortunately what brought us to where we are. 

...and, anybody is nuts if they trust the gov't to properly correct the problem they created in the first place.

lol. Honestly guys, you have got to try living in a different socio-economic system for a few years. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just saying a breath of different air is a fascinating thing.

Living in Finland, a country where the majority of the population TRUST the government, because they're WORTH trusting, is a bit mind boggling.

it is intresting, even being in england for 6 months was enough to give me some thoughts on the american system.

Another great resource for economics is a non-profit organization called The American Institute for Economic Research:

http://www.aier.org/

You guys are fools :)

From what I can tell, they're VERY left-wing and have a specific agenda. I wouldn't trust them at all.

(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/1210/1499171263lhz20ntvj1bfzyt4.gif) ;)

lol Yeah, I probably would have locked it myself if I was a moderator. After reading the rules over again, I indubitably should have stopped myself from making this thread. But we're not biting each others heads off right? Are we improving from the past?

It's only now really getting political. Brandon's watching this. He can lock it and remain impartial :) I'm pretty much tapped out on the subject. All I'm going to do is tell you to do some better research on the subject anyway.

Just remember, the last site you linked to has video links about global warming and how it's worsening b/c of an increase of hurricanes. He's looking at the past 30 years of data, but ignoring data from the early to mid 1900s where they actually had more hurricanes between cat 3 & 5 than in the past 50 years.

Ask yourself this:

1) Why is an economics site pushing information about global warming so hard rather than economic information?
2) Why is it that they are only concerned with a small window of data rather than the big picture?

Yeah, I know those videos are really messed up but the research articles and books they release on gold, retirement, etc. seem pretty legit.

How do they know that what the earth is going through now wasn't part of its normal cycle hundreds/thousands of years ago? Even my Geography teach a few years ago said she didn't know if global warming was real and I personally think it's one of those issues that will never be black and white. But, I think it's good that it has caused people to do things like recycle more.

Actually just a few weeks ago, NASA released data that showed that the process of warming has stopped. The Earth basically has a control mechanism in it for this type of thing.

Anyway, here's the point you missed... how can you trust them on economics if they show flaws in other areas of research they are promoting?

Their bit on unemployment however is fuzzy though. It's along the same lines as those who say the people in prison should be counted in unemployment as well as those who have stopped looking b/c "technically" they are unemployed.

(http://pricepages.org/temp/disp_doomed.jpg)

Hahaha. Well, that's fine. But as long as they keep providing free education at all levels, stipends to students so they have living/spending money, loads of grants for research projects, plentiful bonus money for raising a family, free banking, free-ish health care, just about no-strings-attached unemployment benefits, including real back to work training, corporations who want financial wealth for customers, not to rob their pockets, lots of fair trade agreements, highest percentage of their GDP spend on international development, recycling my garbage into 5 categories....and excellent dairy products.... then I'm happy to high taxes and be a fool :)

Sad situation our country is in.... All we can do is pray, and vote for who seems the best candidate, and for God to provide all our needs, which he will anyway. Funny that paper can cause such a problem but alas it does. Let's those behind the scenes have all the control. So much corruption... so many things hidden from us....

But God has infiniti more power than any man or group in power like the illuminati. God let your will be done. Amen.

And... just how high are your taxes (don't forget gas tax, property tax, sales tax...)? What would you do with that money if taxes were HALF of what they are?

I am coming late to this particular party... but let me add this...

I run a small production house here in the Detroit area, I have a few steady clients(hey... its growing :) ) one of my main customers works at a high level in the financial field (securities) as a day job, and we are working on a couple of projects that includes a documentary film and an audiobook. . . he is a very conservative man. if anyone tried to throw any form of "liberal" label at him it would cause waves of laughter that would roll across the nation...

2 weeks ago, he was telling me stories of clients of his losing BILLIONS of dollars, and how frankly, he (and many of his peers) expect to see MASSIVE bank failures by the end of the year, if things are not somehow artificially corrected. that is what the whole move to have the Fed oversee the banking system AND the stock market is all about... it is an artificial "cure" for what could very well be a complete collapse of our banking system.

will it work? he is quite skeptical. . . we'll see. either way, its a good time to sit back, relax... and realize that God is in control.

^ massive bank failures would definitely suck. it will be interesting to see how all of this plays out. i'm definitely no expert though, so im not going to offer up any factual statements or opinions.

Shortsightedly I say...

I'm glad my bank is FDIC insured for up to $100,000 and that my combined bank accounts are still far, far under that amount.

it's funny,because ANYONE can afford some sort of home in this country.  i was flipping through one of those "homes for sale" papers, and saw not one,but several trailers (in good parts of town) for $500- $3000.   No, living in a trailer park isn't paradise,but it sure ain't the ghetto and it's better than most of the world has it.
  if you can't make $300/mo for a home+space rent in this country, then there's something wrong with you...

Exactly.

Haha, and that's exactly the attitude that's not present here. The population understands that if they're all paying higher taxes, they all benefit together. People generally are happy paying for another person's education, another person's childcare, because they know it'll come back to them. What would you do with that money if it wasn't gone in taxes? Pay for something that taxes are currently covering.

Honestly, I would send my child to private school and give him a better education, invest more for retirement (and get 10x as much as the Gov't could provide), I would be encouraged and able to save more, I might even give more to my church, pay off my mortgage A LOT faster and that's just the start of things. I'm a huge supporter of the FairTax (http://www.fairtax.org).

An individual is always better at determining his or her needs than a government could ever be.

People make mistakes which should be expected but that doesn't mean everything they say is bad. Yes, we should consider their view points in other areas so we know to be cautious. Like you pointed out, what does a organization that does economic research have anything to do with global warming? But, if they are talking about something like business cycles, cost of living, retirement, etc. you can find important information. Maybe they, like many universities who started as a bible college and turned into a secular university, are going the same route. But, you can still learn how to be a very successful accountant at one of these universities. In fact, you can even become a better accountant at some secular universities than a Christian one because they may have a better program. We shouldn't make a bad and good line and sort everything out to either side.

For instance, if you know someone who is clearly mentally disabled, you may have already subconsciously made up your mind about them and decided what you can trust. But, they can be completely above par to the rest of society in other aspects. For example, I have a friend who is disabled and a few weeks ago we were talking about our birthdays. One girl told him her birthday after he told his and he gave her the exact day she was born on.  Then, each of us began telling him our birthdays and he told us what day we were born on. He is like freakin rainman! Pure genius!

I think we constantly run into faulty logic by trying to group people into categories instead of seeing each person as a individual. Even Rick Warren said he is not left winged or right winged, he sees himself as part of the whole bird. We should always put checks and balances within our own thinking just as the Bereans did in Acts. Personally, I think that this country is run by individuals with money who don't care about the nation. People who run corporations, who do things like outsourcing, push their agendas in politics with their wealth and brainwash the majority of the population to make them think they have a choice. You can only go democratic or republican. Everything else is going to lose because of their control over powerful influences like the media. They have set up the system so you must choose their way or their way. Anyone who is honest and won't be swayed by money will just quietly fall to the side and be ignored because they won't get the same backing as the others. In this country, I am taught to vote for what is best for me instead of considering society as a whole and my personal needs. I think that the majority of people with power do what is best for them and could care less about everyone else. I think it's dangerous to be caught in any type of political system. There is good and bad from both the conservatives and liberals because these are individuals who all have different personal experiences and knowledge unique to their own path in life.

It's always good to reevaluate what we believe and why. God constantly uses evil sinful people everyday to communicate to us and teach us. As long as we keep going back to Him to keep things in check, I don't see any need to group people into a category and shun everything they say.

Haha, well, you're right. But what IF a government was better at determining the needs of a population, than 6 Million Dave Richardsons were. No economy as it stands could sustain such a population nationally, without undergoing massive changes. Not that changes are bad, or not-needed.

I'm all for the things you're talking about, but if my neighbour can't put food on his plate, for whatever reason, I'm happy to help him do that. And if it's taxes that provide that assistance, then I'm still happy. And if a government is getting rich off it at the same time, it's not this government... too tightly regulated :)

If the government provides ENOUGH of the things you're talking about, then I'm happy to let them take care of it through taxes and then I can focus on the other things in my life. Not having to worry about any of the stuff you mention, allows me to worry about other things :)
And if the government is also providing for my neighbours, plus the alien, fatherless, and the widow... which they are in this country, then I can't fault them.

Well, I'm sure I COULD fault them. But in this particular regards... you know.

I have two things to say for you. 1] Are you referring to public vs private college? or pre-college, like lower grade 12 and below. The reason I am curious is because I wanted to know your opinion on private schools. Personally I wouldnt send my kids (if i had them) to a private elementary, middle, or high school. College is a whole another story though. sorry for straying off topic.

2] i completely agree about the fair tax thing. big fan as well.

I'm talking K-12. Feel free to disagree. I won't argue with you about that :)


Such a system has never existed. Does your government personally come to you and gather information on your specific needs for the day? The month? The year? Is your gov't totally uncorruptable? Have they ever wasted a DIME of tax payer money?


great.


Where in your constitution does it say that this is the job of your government? Seriously. Quote it.


It's not a matter of the government getting rich. It's a matter of waste and spending money on people who don't really need it. When individuals are in charge of giving, they give more and give in a manner that helps the individual in a more meaningful and... corrective way than the government does or can.

Has the number of people receiving these types of benefits gone up or down over the past 10 years? Does everyone on the system really need to be on it or are there some people who are milking it?


Not to through down the communist question, but... Cuba provides all of this. Would you be happy living there? What's the real difference? How much are you willing to turn over to the government?


Um... some, if not all of the things I listed are some of the most important things you will have to deal with in your LIFE. What the government is doing is allowing you to be irresponsible and ignorant in regards to your own life.


Are they getting help that makes them more or less able to live independent of the governments influence? Again, per your constitution, is it the job of the government to provide these services?

Rick Warren can say whatever he wants about himself. His actions tell the truth. The same people who you are going to for information on the economy are also the same people who don't belive you the individual should have the right to choose what type of car you drive (it has to be eco-friendly), shame you for flying (while they fly in private jets) and so on. They don't care about the individual one bit.


Sure, there are some like that. Most of the ones I see fall into that category are the ones saying this and at the same time are arguing that our freedoms should be further restricted.


You know most of this happened because of our tax laws right? The fair tax would fix this as America would become the biggest corporate tax shelter in the world.


Sure... I'll have all the choices I want in my one-size fits all government health plan. Under which, I'll have to go to Mexico for a CAT scan. Also, per the courts in Cali, homeschooling my child will be considered child abuse.


There's something wrong with having a majority? Someone has to be able to make a decision.


Our media that in just about every survey shows that they support the people saying we need to have more government involvement in our lives rather than less. These people who think sites like TF should be shut down for not having a journalists license. Come on.


You don't surrender your rights to people for the sake of other people. Government isn't the answer and never has. Our constitution does not provide anywhere for nationalize healthcare or any system of "handout" period. Sure a saftey net is nice, but not a lifestyle program.


Sure and that's why the Dems right now are floundering in a sea of lies as they try to decide who's gonna be their nom for president. Power, power, power...


François Guizot once said: "If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."


I hear what you are saying, but if you are posting this stuff as "truth" then you need to really do more research. Get into some KNOWN conservative group sites like the heritage foundation (http://www.heritage.org/) and take a look a things.

Sorry, I got set off.

Anyway...  here's a decent "plan"  (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm1874.cfm)to fix things in our "not-so free" free market. Like all good plans, it identifies the problem well, discusses the cause, looks at how the system is suppose to works, verifies the integrity of the system and so on... before proposing a solution.

lol. Dave, you're a passionate guy, you take things seriously and you want what you think is best for your country and your family. That's commendable my friend :)

To be honest, I don't really want to discuss taxation schemes, or politics, or the economy either. And I don't want to turn this into another Dave/Pudd argument.

All I came here to say, and I'll say it again, is moving to another country and experiencing things there, challenges your perspectives. I'm sure Finland's system has flaws, and I don't plan on living here forever. Next on our list is Australia. But I can't expect you to fully grasp what I'm saying Dave, because 6 months ago I probably would have agreed with you on all this.

My point is, perspectives change. No one can fully appreciated anyone else's lot in life till they walk in their shoes.

People in Finland have no concept of not being able to receive education. They don't understand not being able to afford it. They also have no concept of being thrown out on the street. If they don't make enough money, the government will cover the rest. That's the way it works here.

Maybe that leaves people dependent on the government here. But the government continues to provide, and has done so for many years. The population trusts the government, and the government has proven themselves to provide for the population.

People in this country feel safe, secure, and they have no fear of there ever not being a roof over their head, or of what might happen if they get sick or in an accident of some kind. All I am saying is living in an environment like this, it affects your viewpoints. The things you think about all the time, and are convinced are the most important things, change, when faced with a government who provides entirely different solutions, from an entirely different socio-economic perspective.

Or at least it's affected me.

Jesus rocks...
and yes, firsthand experience in different cultures (and economic/political systems) is really cool. one of the reasons i think american christians in general have just a hard time understanding God in a lot of ways is because we dont have a monarchy (we talk about Jesus as King, yet none of us has been under king... it is intresting). /smallrant
its really nice to go into a culture and see the good parts about it. pretty much every system has at least a few good points that the rest can really learn by. look at the queen of england, she has been there for SO many years, she has so much wisdom. in america, we dont have anyone like that. no one is respected the way the queen is.

I just got done watching the videos from The American Institute for Economic Research and found out that we both misjudged them. We didn't get to know them first. We just saw "global warming" and instantly our alarms went off. This video says global warming is a hoax:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mzedKJxohAY

This one says why environmentalism is a religion:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_ZZQguQbelY

Since the environment brings up government tax, then I guess economics is part of the topic of global warming.

This is what I mean. I do it all the time. I put organizations and individual people into categories and label them without truly getting to know them. I've realized that everything is different when you get to know someone.

I'll bet that most people who are reading this thread right now never even looked at the majority of the links posted here either. It's rare that people will really take a careful look at things. I'm sure many don't even have the time to. Which is another dilemma... How do we figure out all this stuff with time against us while we're just trying to survive? Is our life based on some sort of fate in the knowledge we come in contact with?

I have a lot of Christian friends because I grew up in that environment and I happen to be a follower of Christ myself. Many of them are so strung on their political views and so against liberals that I think it takes the form of racism. Conservatives may even be worse than liberals in this regard, from my experience.  Many times I find that being conservative is the exact opposite to what Jesus would do and I think that grouping people into political labels can cause so much misinformation. So many people in power use the word "Christian" and God's own name for their own agenda.

I want to try and make myself consider "the other side" in as many opposing areas as possible cause I know how many times I've been wrong about different issues. I used to just bounce back everything I was taught in church whenever someone had different ideas and opinions than mine. I realized I wasn't being courteous of the other person and trying to see things the way they do and try and understand what they've lived through. I think if we make time to listen to someone and question our own beliefs, then they will have enough respect for us to question their beliefs as well.


I'm not presenting any solution for how a government should be run. I have no idea. I guess the answer is that there is no perfect government and we must choose between the lesser evil... I don't like taxes and I'm for individual freedom too but I also don't know how I'm able to help all those people on the street or those who don't have health care... Maybe we need to somehow revolutionize the way people think. If we could make people somehow care for their neighbor then a government with more individual freedom sounds like a good idea. But, if we do let the government care for those who are in need, will they be doing it efficiently? They don't seem to be doing other things very efficiently right now.... This seems like a no-win situation.


I love that quote :)

We are taught in this society that we need to have answers and opinions but I think we need to realize that saying, "I don't know" is perfectly fine. More people should be honest about what they truly know. Maybe we all don't know. Even the person who has studied the most is capable of error. Everything is just completely screwed up. Sometimes all we can do is try to abide by God's standards the best we can and keep trusting and knowing that someday we will have a perfect ruler.

Our economy is fine.  Global warming is a myth.

Thanks. I'm not slamming Finland btw. I do however expect ppl to WANT to make choices about their future rather than having some beurocrats and politicians make them for you.

My wife actually works for the welfare program over here. Everyday she sees people who get benefits and don't work. They just live off of it. The law allows them to make up to XXX amount of money and still retain all of their benefits. This would immensely help to improve their lives. She and her co-workers explain it, but they still won't listen. We have 28 million ppl in the system now. 80% of blacks (if my wife is correct) are on it to some degree. As a whole across the nation, whites are the majority on the system, not blacks. It's just disturbing that 80% of one race would be dependent on the gov't like this.

The laws around it for decades have stated that you get more if you are unmarried. The whole system has made blacks dependent on the government, and the democrats constantly use this as bait to stay in power rather than to offer solutions that would help these people get on their feet and move into the middle class (what's left of it anyway).

I wish I could say the system helps. It doesn't it's a failure.


We've had one before??? I've been in so many that I can't remember who I've bashed :) And no... we shouldn't be fighting period.


Ain't changin' my mind. A capitalist system which allows truly free trade and freedom in living will always be better. The best government in the world is the one that governs least. Sadly, it ain't the US. I'm really not speaking out of nationalist pride, but don't ever attack my nation's honor ;)


To a point, I agree. I can know however that being a drug addict isn't good without having to be one. I just may not understand the addiction. Sad. I could be a victim of the druggies addiction though.


Until 1979, there wasn't a Department of Education in the US. Since then, schools have gone down hill big time. It's not JUST the government's fault, it's the broken home's and parents who view their children as perfect AND the school as daycare. It's truly sad. I can get a free education, it just may not be the one I want. Should I want to put my son in private school, I have to pay for his public education AND his private one. That shouldn't be the case, but teachers unions won't let the politicians give us school vouchers and the courts rule that homeschooling is child abuse. Freedom of education in this country is almost a myth.


Over here we have rent controlled apartments. Should the cost of housing rise, the landlord can't raise your rent to cover it. Landlords end up becoming slum lords as they can't afford the money to properly maintain these apartments. The government forces this. The business owner is the bad guy.


BUT... per your constitution is this the job of your government? I really want you to look at that issue. I understand the people being happy, but is it the job of the government to do that?

A lot has been written about the preamble to ours:


The big debate really is over the phrase "promote the general welfare." Personally, I think it's sad that the dominant definition of welfare (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/welfare) has become that of the government system that didn't even exist until about 150 years AFTER the constitution was written.


Trust me, I know it's seductive, but is it right? Is it really freedom?

Hmmm... Kevin called me when I was starting to watch the first video. So... I sit corrected.


A BUNCH of the ppl pushing it are anti-capitalists. So... that's why it's such a huge deal.


Sometimes. I know what you mean though. I've gotta work on other stuff now tonight, but yeah... Whoops. I'm a moron.

Yeah really! It's seriously crazy here. AND, the private schools are very expensive so not only is the cost of living here through the roof, if you want to protect your kids from the school system, you need to fork over more money. The parents are so busy trying to survive, they don't have any time to spend with their kids, with both parents working usually, and so they are getting raised by the government in the public schools. I've already had a few friends move out of state....

These discussions CAN be so good, once we get over ourselves. lol.

Dave, I just want to add a couple of thoughts. Again, about perspective. Just trying to challenge your concepts a little, as usual :D I'm talking in broad concepts here.

You've spoken about the fear of your CAT scan going to Mexico, and not having any say in education, and so on. (A lot of the same fears were displayed in Sicko, so you're not the only one who fears this).
The thing is my friend, honestly, these fears are not rational in Finland, or even Canada to a degree. The fact of the matter is, Finland's public education system is ranked top in the world, year after year. The literacy rate is 100%, US is 95%. The health system is excellent, we can still choose our own doctors, and there's a private system available. In the US there is roughly 347 patients per doctor, in Finland 315. (By the way, I think it's crucial for there to always exist a private sector in health, education, whatever. There has to be choice.) Life expectancy here is just slightly higher than the US. Again... I'm not bashing America, just keep reading.

And the issues with people living off the welfare system, I totally understand that, and it's terrible. Canada has the same problem.
But what if people weren't leeching? This is one of the strangest things about Finland, the population in general are givers, not takers. There's a law here about Everyman's Forest: it means anyone can go into a forest, and take stuff, greenery, bushes, nuts, whatever. It's free. In Canada, such a law would destroy the country, because people would just take and take till all the resources were plundered. Finn's understand how that would destroy a forest, and so it's not an issue. Nationwide.

That difference, fundamentally, is what allows this country to run the way it does. For reasons I don't understand, the population of this country is socially and economically responsible, and not leeches. No one has to be told why you need to recycle, everyone understand it, and we recycle garbage into at least 5 different categorized bins. People LIVE waste not, want not.

The concerns you have raised are totally valid within the population you live in, and as relates to the people that run your country. It's very possible that the kind of social ideals prevalent in Europe could not thrive in America. But isn't that what America was about to begin with? Let's start again and do things "free".

So I'm not coming down hard on America, far be it from me. I'm trying to point out a social democracy that WORKS. Front to back, works.

Here I find I have everything I need, forget fears about the government handling it wrong... what if they handled it RIGHT? So I've got everything I need, for raising a family, growing old, etc. I don't feel I've lost any freedom, I haven't had choice taken away from me, because I'M THE ONE who moved to Finland, I chose this. So with those aspects of life taken care of, I am free to go and pursue business, art, sport, whatever else. And it's not like the Finn's are suffering under this system, their technology is everywhere, their sports players are everywhere, their amazing education system means they grow up incredibly smart and go on to great things.

To summarize again, because I want you to understand my heart. My point is not to preach about the greatness of this nation or the failings of another. I just want to expand your horizon a bit; I've tried to explain how your fears are not necessarily valid, once removed from your current circumstances. And I'm not trying to actually change your mind about capitalism. I'll leave that to the Bible ;)

Aaahahaha....

BTW, stats taken from Encyclopedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com).

That's pretty cool! Why do you think the people there are like that? Is it the way they are raised?

We, in the USA, are so materialistic and I think it causes so many problems. It's like we've forgotten about life itself and are constantly focused on things. This is especially true where I live in California. Someone once told me that the way we observe value is completely screwed up. A price on a item that we buy has nothing to do with its value. Before we buy something, we don't see where it is going to take us in life or improve us as a person. We constantly sacrifice a better future for things we want now.

DJuiceD might be able to give a better answer than me, but I think it's due to the history of the country and the living conditions. We're really friggin far North, 1/3 of Finland is in the arctic circle, and Finland has a very low population (and population density). I think that has combined to result in people understanding the need to share, and the need to preserve. But I'm no expert.

its is also a whole planning thing. probably the biggest industry in Finland is the paper industry. now it has been for a long time. and i think they produce 1/3 of the worlds paper pulp. but since the 1940's the ammount of trees has increased. so it is planning ahead. looking at you need to look out in the future.

I think its interesting that you mention bush or McCain as social conservatives? They are growing goverment and debt, that isn't a conservative idealogy.

Socialism isn't good if you ask me, but to each his own.  I think in America you will always have the grass roots of laissez faire approach or "hands off". 

Ah the global warming hoax.  Isn't interesting that Al Gores movie is based on a .5° + change in temperature rise and this last year the earth cooled almost 2°, but no one is talking about it.  Its hush hush, and the ocean temperatures have not changed, regardles s of ice formations or not.  The earth hasn't warmed in over 10 years now.  It snowed in Baghdad for the first time last year, did anyone see that?  Thousands of people died in Africa last year from cold temperatures, China, where is that news? 30 years ago, people predicted the next ice age, massive movement.  During the great depression, people made movie trailors about the world freezing, and they tried populism then.  Conservation is good in itself, its too bad they threw all that in the same bowl...get ready for a save the planet tax   ;D

Yeah, we have materialism problems. The thing is though that time and time again, when there is an outcry either nationally or internationally, American PEOPLE (not the government) out give every other nation and their people. We may be materialistic, but we are givers.

There was a study done a few years ago that tracked giving by political association in the US. As it turned out, liberals in the country did very little personal giving while conservatives on the other hand gave out a ton. It goes back to perspective. The liberals view giving as something only the Government should do rather than something we all should do on our own.

Roybn Blummer, a columnist for the St. Petersburg Times in FL wrote an article (http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/article434242.ece) about this for yesterday's edition. In it she said:


It's wrong for me to decide how to spend my money, be it on giving or starting a business that will employ thousands of others. I don't know what's best. It's all a lie.

So is materialism.

Satan gets us both ways. It's a matter of finding balance. Otherwise we end up in a position of saying God intended us all to be nomads (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSkuADrb2xk) and that if we truly loved one another there would be no need for either capitalism or communism.

By Bush's own words, what he's doing is compassionate conservatism. The Republicans have lost their way... period. The thing is, that they still want LESS growth of government than the Dems right now.

Outside of the war(s) and tax cuts, Bush isn't really on my "best prez" list right now.


I'm seriously starting to see that disappear. Just look at what you said about Bush. ;)


It's interesting that most of the taxes and limits proposed and in placed are aimed at harming developed western nations economies while not restricting those of China, India and other nations with booming economic growth. All I know is that another gas tax will not get me to drive less. I have to drive to get to my job. That isn't a choice. Want to give me a choice? Push harder on alternative fuels (other than ethanol which is way too inefficient and based on our food supply - 1 gallon of ethanol requires as much corn as you would eat in 1 year.)

Ok... there is one GOOD thing Bush did besides the war and tax cuts. He pushed the idea of hydrogen fuel cell cars and put money behind it. Chevy (http://www.chevrolet.com/fuelcell/), Honda (http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/) and other car manufacturers are about to start rolling out cars fueled only by hydrogen and with a waste product of water. GIVE ME THIS!!! This technology has been around since the Moon Missions in the 60s. Why has it taken so long for it to become commercialized? It's not like Big Oil won't change over to it. ;)

reading this is a good intro lesson in the difference between a conservative and liberal philosophy.


bottom line: conservatives think money is most efficiently used by individuals, not governments.  we BOTH BELIEVE IN FEEDING,CLOTHING,AND SHELTERING THE HUNGRY!  Conservatives just believe private institutions, such as the church & their neighbors to do a better job of it than the government.

one FYI: most european countries are lowering taxes, not raising them...

and just another FYI: noone has to sleep outdoors here.  most homeless people who actually live under bridges here are mentally ill.

oh yeah, one other thing: Finland has 5 million people. that's less that michigan.  (IE 1 in 50 states in the US)

it's a whole lot easier to be homogenous and of one mind about things when you have a relatively small group of people and are (i assuming) mostly of the same ancestry.. 

it's like saying "all people in Alaska share common feelings about the poor and about helping their fellow man".

in a country as large and diverse as the United States, where people from all over the world are still flocking to get in, it's a little bit harder...

Actually, it's like saying "all of the people in the METRO Atlanta area share common feelings about the poor and about helping their fellow man."

Yeah... the city I live in is about the size of your entire country.

lol. Please don't tell me you think I don't know that :)

All I've been trying to push is the boundaries...

And thanks for your comments, all. Good things :) I like this discussion.

Haha... the boundaries were pushed long b4 you posted ;) That's why so many of us are so anti-what yer saying ;)

Anti thinking outside of your current boxes? Snap.

after thinking outside of ALL the boxes, you have no where to go but back into them. One day I plan to do an installation piece about this.

to go back abit on the giving and taking.
the american thing to do is take what you want, ever since the beginning. look at what the government did to the native americans. we took what we wanted, regardless of what they wanted. it has sparked a trend that is the root of greed and materialism. thats america.

i once heard that less then 3% of christians have the spiritual gift of service. i think its less then 3% in the US only. because i have seen african christians give up their food for a day so that i could have some beef stew or something for dinner.
you have no idea what that feels like unless it has happened to you.
but what if we were like that? what if the church in america started giving without thought to the consiquences (its God's money anyway)? what would happen? i think people would stop thinking that the Church is only out to get money. i heard a study lately that said something like 70% of money given to the church stays in the church. (the guy wanted pastors and full time people to work for free... which i dont agree with and i understand opporating costs, but jeeze)
what if American Christians really understood that everything they own was given to them by God and that God was really the owner?

Depends on your view of history. We may have "taken" the land, but at the same time they kept claiming that they didn't own it. It was the clash of property rights. They didn't understand what that meant until we came. So... what should we have done? It flat out wasn't a good situation. The solution never would have been ideal.


Totally agree. Often times we Americans don't know what it is to truly suffer or simply go without. It's a huge problem here. I'd challenge the gift stat though, but your point about African Christians is correct.


Well, the first stat is that 20% of the church supplies 80% of the money the church takes in. That's consistent stat. Now, what's your definition of "stays in the church" is that money going to the church's ministries or are they just hording it? What about paying their bills? All of that cuts into the offering. Realistically, 70% isn't that bad. My church's budget for example is about $1,000,000 a year. So, based on that, we're still sending out $600,000. Every year I get to vote on the budget and I can review an explanation of it. I never see anything in it that is really out of line. Maybe I just go to an awesome church, after all, we have started several churches in Russia, a deaf church, at least 2 other local churches and help out with several other ministries and mission trips around the world. We're also looking at getting involved with Angel Food Ministries (http://www.angelfoodministries.com/) now too.



Exactly. We'd live totally differently, but then again... some might be fairly close to that now.  If we could just turn that 20/80 rule around, that would make a HUGE difference. What if 50% of the church gave 50% of the budget ;)

BTW, as long as you are talking about Christians giving through the church as part of their faith walk, you are clearly saying that giving should be done on a volunteer basis and not controlled by the gov't.

Me and Pat D just helped out my friend Janay with a birthday party in Long Beach. She was throwing a surprise birthday party for her step mom at the salon she owns. It was very cool to see her whole family and friends celebrate the life of this lady. She spent so much money on everything and truly loves her step mom like her own mother. They are so much more encouraging and excited about God than white people. They had a time in the middle of the party, where they had her stand in the middle of everyone and people would come up to the microphone and tell her how much she has blessed their lives. Later, we got in a circle and prayed for her and her husband. I've never seen anything like that at any of my white friend's or families birthday parties. At a lot of the white churches I go to, God seems to be more of a side thing added onto their life to give them some kind of tradition even though they seem more educated about the bible. From what I've seen from the black gospel communities, even though they may not do everything just as the bible says, God is everything to them and the joy and happiness in their life. It's rare to see a person like that at many of the predominantly white churches I've been to. I'm speaking for California again. I'm not sure about the other states.

^ Just want to say, I've been part of a church (mostly white) for a while that's totally into that kind of thing. So there are others who've seen the light of honouring one another, and being greatful.


I guess this was directed at Alex, but I just wanted to chime. Clearly we just disagree regarding this, but I am happy to to know that my government takes care of a lot of the "basic" human needs, for their countrymen: I'm proud to live in a country where I know there's little to no poverty, and everyone is industrious, does their fair part, and the government does their best to provide great education, health care, etc.

Beyond that, I still get to decide what I give to. I guess we have difference perceptions of freedom, because from your comments it sounds like freedom to you is an absolute thing. If you government is responsible for x amount of your life, then you have zero freedom... and I don't really subscribe to that. I think freedom is relative.

I'm sure we could have a fascinating discussion about church budgets... hahaha.

Do you really believe this? Maybe for most people this is true, but there are true innovators out there man. People who create new social concepts, new ideals and new structures. People whose ideas about things fundamentally change the way we do things, the way we think.

And even if you're right, that doens't make our boxes acceptable, or mean we should become complacent. I will fight till the day I die to try and think outside whatever box I am in, to challenge the norms and to "not go gently into that good night".

Nice so the people sleeping under the bridges aren't real? 

Dave:  As far as the grass roots movement I think it will be majorly strengthened.  Most conservatives here are not happy with Republicans ignoring what they want.  About 60% of the country is still conservative, and I mean Democrat and Republican.  People want fiscal responsibilty, lower taxes (which would make the economy boom), I think eventually it will happen.  It took Jimmy CArter to get a Raegan, so most things here are cyclical I think. 

I read somewhere that finland has like the third highest suicide rate in the world?  How can a place that frigid get voted the best place to live, they obviously haven't been to the USA, cmon Southern Cal, Florida, Colorado, Arizona, ah yeah gotta love the USA  ;)

Kissinger said it best on that epsiode of Futurama when he said, "This is not a productive area for discussion."  ;)

lol, it's been productive Brandon!

I was just looking for an excuse to use my Kissinger voice while typing.  ;)

The economy is fine, it's hype.  The crap mortgages are real but the economy isn't about to bottom out because of it.

Actually, yes, because eventually when you step outside of ALL the boxes, and I do mean every last one of them, then you won't have any morals at all. Everything will be acceptable and open to you to do.

As far as the people you're talking about, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Engles, Castro, Mao... they all thought way outside of the box and created new social concepts. In the last 100 years, over 100 million people have been killed by the ideas they put into effect.


What if the box you are in is the Truth and you step out of it? Was that a good thing to do? Are you ever going to step out of your Christian box and move to an Islamic one? Both are boxes and both are valid in today's culture. Are you saying that you would fight against the Christian box?

ughh... like there's such a thing as a Christian box! I almost wish there was, it might mean we were all more unified. Clearly there are Christian boxes, I just mean I don't think it's so simple to say "I'm in a Christian box and all that's in here with me is the truth."

We're all way more complex than that. And again, you're talking about the evil of communism here. I'm not for communism, and I'm not for amoral thought.


This is an interesting thought, and it helps me understand a bit where you're coming from. But I don't really think it's true. Compared to the people around at his time, Jesus thought "out of the box." His disciples constantly couldn't understand him, what he was thinking, where he was going, etc.

I don't think creative thought and morals are bound together.

Of course they are. They both come from the same mind right? Take pornography for example. Clearly it is immoral and clearly there is also a case to call it art... even when not tastefully done. Like it or not, porn can be considered art depending on the definition of art. The most basic definition is "a medium applied to a surface." There really isn't any more to it. Any man-made image or construct could be considered art and therefore creative. As you've seen in films like the matrix and 300, there is a certain "art" in the presentation of death. How in the world could you not see a relationship between creative thought and morality?

All my life I've studied art and I've kept up with the whole "out of the box" philosophy for at least half of my life. Trust me, creativity and morals are connected. Criminals have to think creatively to keep from being caught. Politicians have to think creatively to screw us over... well... some still try to. Communism was just an example. I wasn't saying you said it was right. It's also a fairly clear example of how a sexist and lazy man (marx) could think of a philosophy that later on could be exploited by others to control people and make them believe that the government is God or at least god-like. It's all about thinking creatively and it's all about morals.

Alright, you've defended your point. I'm interested. But I don't think that expanding creativity must or does always, come at the cost of morals.

No, that all depends on which box you enter once you leave the one you are in. Once you step outside of ALL the boxes... then you have nothing to hold you back in any area of your life. Once you are there, nothing matters and you do whatever you please. It will either repulse you and you'll retreat back into the boxes again or you will get lost in the filth.

Just remember, every time you step outside of the box, you are in reality stepping into a different, usually bigger box.

...and this could be why it's hard for me to find any type of work in my location.  :-\

Retail isn't what's slowing right now. It's construction and real estate.

Regarding boxes. I think we're on slightly different wavelengths here. I understand what you're saying, and if I'm grasping it I think you're right. But you're thinking in broader terms than I was. Also, I'm not sure what I think about actually leaving a box. Generally I've been talking about thinking outside the box, as it relates to problem solving. I'm not talking about getting outside of your social constructs and finding something else to believe in, I'm talking about allowing yourself to think laterally to come up with solutions to problems that your own circumstance might not quickly lead you to. I think there's a difference.

The phrase "think outside the box" arguably originated with the 9 point puzzle (connect all 9 dots in 4 lines). The only way to accomplish it was to extend your lines beyond the frame of the dots... point was there was no frame, you just assumed there was a frame when you saw the 9 dots.
I don't know if that makes a difference to this discussion... I'm just trying to say I can start thinking laterally and "differently" (taking a different approach) to technical and managerial challenges at work, without compromising my morals. In the same way, I think this can be done with social, political and economic problems. My earlier point was that if you got on a place and left America, and settled down in Africa then I'm sure you're ideas about how best to help African's would be challenged. By the same token, if you moved to Finland and saw a booming social democracy with a satisfied population, then perhaps some of your ideas about government and it's appropriate role in people's lives might also be challenged.

I'm not so interested in the outcome of you being challenged because I'm not trying to convert you to anything. I just want you to be challenged. I want to encourage everyone to continually look at different approaches. I for one love change, and I like when my perspectives get re-arranged. I think it's healthy, I don't want to get stuck in one way of thinking, I fear I will stagnate. That's one of the reasons I love these forums and love spiritual discussions ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMSHOPkcVv8&feature=related

couldn't resist

heh... if your not thinking about the broader, long term effects... then you aren't truly thinking outside of the box. ;)


I hear what you are saying, but it's still the same thing. For example, if you have a conflict with a certain someone, you only have one option open... to negotiate. Should that fail or take too long, or not even possible... you then have to think outside the box. Options such as assaulting the person, killing the person or even as simple as blackmailing them all become viable outside of the box thoughts. Blackmail wouldn't be so bad would it? I mean, it's not like anyone would get hurt and are you really compromising or leaving your value system to do that???


See, we're really touching on my beef with group think here now. In Universities and other "forward thinking groups," group think is considered bad and something that should be avoided. To a certain point, I agree. The problem is that you have to include people of opposite positions or thought in the group in order to do this. So... these groups go out off their way to include people like that. Once they are in though, these outside thinkers eventually are excluded from the group for "bad thoughts" or they are by a process of time and stagnation, conformed to the groups overall thought process. So, nobody truly ever stepped out of the box to think.

A direct example would be if a group on a university campus is formed to decide how to curb the growing gun violence on campus nation wide in the US. By default, if the group were truly going to attempt to think outside of the box, they should have one or more pro-gun people in their group. These people would bring stats to the table such as crime rates being lower in areas where gun ownership is encouraged and examples of where guns in the hands of students and faculty have prevented gun violence (yes, there have been recorded incidents of this). The group how ever would never involve such people or try to get them removed from the group once they brought this information forward. Why? Because despite their stated desire to think outside of the box, they are not really willing to do so. Because of that, they will miss a very effective way of preventing violence. Heck, just take down the "this is a gun free zone" sign outside. All that says to someone is "Hey Look! Victims Inside!"

In some cases like this, you want to protect people from the morally reprehensible, but because of a mis-analysis of a problem and other hang-ups, the most effective solution may not even be considered.


Somehow I don't think my opinion that the first thing you need to do is wipe out the murderi