A lot of the concepts from these groups came as part of a discussion between Carey, Rish, Saryn and myself over the past week. Below is a portion of the posts regarding these fellowships. These have been moved from the Help Andy Hunter! (http://www.tastyfresh.com/forum/index.php/topic,902.0.html) thread and merged here.

Let's join the discussion already in progress ...

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Honestly, I think you and justin are right where we all should be. My best esitmate still puts the xian scene at no more than 5-7,000 people strong world-wide. It's not enough of a market for a label to live on and nobody can get much of a local "xian" scene going. Our largest shows are still less that 500 people and the best CD sales figures I've heard are still at 5k copies. I could go on, but there's not much point. If I get a chance, there will be an article about this in the zine though. 

Things just don't look good for the "xian" scene when the writers at DJ Mag tell you "A seperate story regarding Christians and clubbing would not be possible, because nothing new has happened." My response that he is right for the most part. The only real growth we have had has been in Christians reaching out into the secular scene and making waves there. Now THAT is the story. Combine that with what Andy H said in his interview with TF in this zine issue:


Things look more and more like we need to be working in the exisiting culture rather than creating our own. We won't be effective witnesses if we are a sub-culture of a sub-culture.

I just like putting "feet to faith" that's all.  These Dj's lift up Jesus Christ, and I think we should support them and boost their ratings so that more people know about them.  In turn they become more successful and have a larger group of people to minister to.  To me it doesn't matter if they are "good or not" what matters is that they are helping spread the Good News.  And might I add that AH, Shiloh, DBA, and the like ARE really good when compared to the secular market(or the "entire everybody market," if you prefer).

I've got to say that even if I wasn't a Christian I would vote for Andy Hunter over Tiesto any day.  Tiesto is good, and I'm not knockin' him, but I like Andy better Thats IMHO though.

I close with this...everyone seems to knock the Christian scene, but before I would knock it, I'd ask myself what am I doing personally to strengthen it.  I like the way AH has the midi signal to promote his music...I think it's a great way to get his music (which points to Jesus) out into the secular crowd.  This kind of stuff is how we can improve our scene and put "feet to our faith."

I guess it depends on what you view as the Christian scene. Is it something we are trying to create that is seperate from the secular one? Secondly, if we are still trying to build and create this scene more than 13 years after the first Christian releases I think it's high time we question it's own existence.

What you mentioned tracker is still the idea that we should be out in the secular trenches trying to share the gospel rather than building our own clone of the scene.

As far as what I am doing, I'm running this site with the specific purpose of challenging what we have done for the past 13 years with the hope that we can develop better ways to reach people with the gospel than we have in the past.

The doors are wide open for us to move into the secular scene and to take the gospel there. The doors have been shut to us in most towns as far as Christian radio play, christian retailers and even churches are concerned, at least in most places. Even in our major cities though, support is very weak.

Whatever works...whether you create a separate scene, cone the worlds, or jump into the worldwide market or the as I said...or heck... you could do all of the above.  I'm just saying whatever means that we can use to boost Christian artist exposure, like the DJ list , we should do it.

It's awesome what you guys have done here and I seriously appreciate your work, Reds, as well as everyone else involved in Tastyfresh, and "the scene" - however you prefer to define it.

Peace My friends
-Matt

That in itself is part of the problem though. Nobody has defined "the scene" and there are no goals for how to do exactly what you are suggesting. Right now, we are small isolated groups going in whichever direction we feel like. There is hardly ANY cohesive teamwork happening in "our scene". Because of that, we really are not growing. We are like bacteria. We spring up on our own, grow for a while, but eventually devour the food and die off. We need to be more like a vine. We need to be connected to each other and well rooted in some sort of foundation (common goals that include Jesus) so that we can maintain our growth and not die out.

Regarding The Christian Scene not selling enough CDs, having enough money, or being accepted as successful in the world's eyes....is that really the goal, or is ministry the goal?  

How much money does Tasty make in a year?

Andy Hunter may not see a need for a Christian scene, but without it his current album would not be out right now.  (It released on Sparrow/EMI exclusively, a Christian record label.)

I'm not bashing Andy, and most of you should know that since I have defended him so vigorously on past threads, and because I am a huge fan of his music.  Just because I love the guy doesn't mean I agree with everything he says or that I'm not able to think for myself though.  I support Andy, and I think he is doing the right thing for his calling, but I don't agree with him that there is no need for a Christian scene to exist.

I support Shiloh and what they are doing 100%. - Their calling is to the Secular scene.

I also support Davo and Demulcent 100%.  - He definitely markets to the Secular scene, but he focuses pretty heavily on the Christian one.

They are different parts of the same body.  They function differently, but they are part of the same team.

likewise:


Overall, the xian market has NOT supported dance music. Our music has NOT been welcome in xian bookstores for years now. Our music has not been welcomed as among MOST xian radio stations. Our music is largely unknown to the xian community mostly because the xian industry has not embraced it like it has other genres of music. Sure it did in the early 90's and it was considered just a fade, but by 1995, just about every N*Soul CD had to be special ordered by the largest xian bookstore chains in the nation.

Sparrow supporting Andy is just that. There is nothing wrong with them doing so. That's great! From what I understand and have observed though, the CD did not sell well. Where it DID do well was in lisencing and THAT probably got Sparrow some great exposure AND cash. That alone more than anything is probably why we have "Life". EMI, as one of the BIG 5 has stockholders to answer to. Andy's looking especially good thanks to all of the movie and TV exposure. Every showing, every print, every re-run equals money that goes back to EMI. When the REST of the dance music here has the ability to generate cash like that, it will be embraced...more so. As is, even now you will be hard pressed to find most xian radio stations playing Andy Hunter.

Just look at Tooth and Nail. Great label. They pretty much defined xian rock in the 90's. Xian rock still is not embraced widely by the xian community. The bands that make it are there are still heavily laden with ccm influences. T&N though made took xian rock to the secular scene in a fairly large way that eventually led to both Switchfoot (who has also made it now in CCM land) and POD among others "making it."

Carey,
My statements (i'm assuming this is why you posted the last two posts) were not meant the way you took them. I am NOT detracting from the fact that some people are called to focus their ministries in the church. I would NEVER do that. What I am saying is that the ministry in the church is still basically non-existent. It has not grown in the past 5 years and the impact we have had over all in the church has not truly increased, but shrunk. The main reason we see djs now in some praise bands is not b/c dance music is cool, but because rock bands like Linkin Park made it cool.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I am tired of us doing the same things and NEVER improving, NEVER growing, and NEVER impacting the church or the secular scene. As a whole, we look at 5-10 people and say "Wow, look at the growth" and then don't build on it at all. There is a lack of commitment among MOST people associated with our scene. We are mostly talk, but never do we go further. We toss up excuses (some are legit) and we just keep saying we are waiting on God. I think it's more like God is waiting on us. We should be where the Holy Spirit leads and right now, it's leading to the secular scene. We can't abandon the Church and we should support it as much as possible, but the mission field is not in the Church. I know it, Shiloh knows it, DBA knows it, Davo knows it, Andy Hunter knows it... I could go on.

The questions are:
When will we all start working together?
When will we put all of the petty turf wars we have going one behind us so we can build on a firm foundation?
When will we actually start taking actions that will lead to us impacting this world as God wants us to?

Well? I for one am tired of sitting back. I think you are to. Can we do that?

Furthermore...

The goal should be ministry. We are not welcome in the xian scene. Period. Well... there are FEW markets where we are, that's it. People hate talking about numbers, but they are important to really judge how effective a ministry is. A soul should never be reduced to a number. However, if you are running 500 in church on Sunday's one year and then a year later you are only getting 100 people, you need to know why that is happening. The same thing is true if you are NOT growing.

Right now, we are luke warm as a scene. We are factionalized, argumentative and prideful. As long as we are, we are NEVER going to grow and we will stagnate. Those who are showing growth are willing to work with anyone, they rarely (if ever argue here) and they are know to be humble people. I REALIZE I miss at least two out of three of those each day. You guys can pray for me about that btw.

If I am wrong, give me some facts to show this. Are we running more events now than we did a few years ago? Are there more xian radio stations playing our music now? Do even our labels work together whenever possible or do we have infighting among them? What about between the media reps of our scene? Do they get along? What about Cornerstone? Has the dance club attendence grown over the past few years or dwindled? Based on what I have seen, we are not growing, but dying.

Now, as far as how much cash does TF make. Zilch. I'm paying ~$5 a month out of my own pocket and spending 40-80 hours a month working on various aspects of this site and the zine. The store is Kevins. Occasionally, I might get some cash from him, but all that depends on people buying the merch there.

So here's two main questions that have plagued me for the past few years:

1) What is the ultimate goal of the Xian dance scene?
2) How well are we really meeting that goal?

For arguments sake, and because I believe it to be true, let's say it is ministry. How effective has our ministry been? Can we show actual progress over the past five years? If so, what progress has been made? Has progress been steady over the past 5 years? What evidence is there to support these answers?

Now this is a great conversation point.
Cynicism has its place. Without people who can have a genuine cynicism about things, we can find ourselves easily growing comfortable with sub-par traditions. I myself can be cynical too, and I would love the opportunity to rant. I won't name names... but there's a lot of problems in our specific "part of the body" that I've seen.

For one... why aren't people flocking to be involved with Electric Circus? Yeah, I am busy... sometimes I can be hard to get in touch with. That's one of my problems I'm dealing with on a day by day basis. I'm also not putting myself on a pedestal here... but let's face it. The show broadcasts in market #36, that's no small potato. It also broadcasts on two other FM stations... across the entire country on Skyangel... the entire world via the internet... with TENS OF THOUSANDS of hits each month on the archive stream alone. WHY aren't people FLOCKING to send me tracks, liners, promo material, and such? Man. It makes me sad, seeing such a lack of motivation in so many people. (though there are those few who are extremely motivated and it makes my heart really happy to see people who love their ministry enough to really do it)

The thing is... Electric Circus is just one program. It's most definitely not the only one out there, and if people aren't flocking to get stuff on my show, how many more people aren't flocking to get their stuff on the others? It's logical to assume that problems or disinterest I see are only repeated and possibly worse in the eyes of other people in my position.

People know that I harp about "radio edits" all of the time. That's only part of the picture. There are a lot of people who work their tails off... and most of them, myself included, though we work our tails off, are still way way way far behind being "par for the course" if we're really honest with ourselves. Fortunately, if we keep working our tails off, we'll get there... but we have to know where to work.

For instance... writing a track is such a small, small part of what really needs to happen if we are to be 'accepted' by the xtian scene, AND if we are to get anywhere in the "secular" scene. A track is just that, a track. I can find it on the internet anywhere for free if I look hard enough... so what? Most bands are out there touring their butts off, selling t-shirts, stickers, and all sorts of other stuff. They're doing radio interviews, shooting music videos, and still living off White Castle while trying to pay for guitar strings and drumsticks. If they weren't doing that, they would be just as "under accepted" as we are.

Musicians need to decide what market they are going for. I've written about it in an article here before, I will retort it again. Pick a market! Either go secular, or you can go christian/mainstream. If you go secular, we're talking clubs and the underground scene, not top-40 radio. Those producers need to figure out how to get their stuff on wax and get it into clubs... get it into DJ's hands... get it on DJ labels. Get their stuff remixed by influential remixers, or do remixes of influential artists. If you try to sell ONLY the traditional, instrumental, 9 minute long tracks (only, as in without any radio/mainstream friendly songs on an album or single) to the xtian market, we'll stagnate, I PROMISE YOU THAT.

If the musicians decide to go for the xtian or top-40 scenes (or both), getting the extended DJ remix support is important, but you won't get anywhere without writing radio songs, and I'm not talking about writing a 3:00 minute version of your 9-minute long vocal-less or one-vocal-sample club track. I'm talking about writing a pop song with an EDM beat. But that's not all. Touring, playing shows, doing interviews, doing web street teams and such, that's the only way to get ahead.

I'm telling you people, we'll be all fine and dandy if we just write tracks. But figure out which market you're going to shoot for and start working on it. I don't really care if people decide to go for the underground/club market, or if they shoot for Christian/top-40. I just want to see people make a decision and pour their hearts into it. For crying out loud, I need to do the same thing. I'm part of the problem.


The only question worth answering publically is the last one. The rest of the questions should be answered between you (the reader of this post) and God, and let your life be changed and your actions be the answer to those questions. The ones who are serious about their ministry and walk with Jesus will be able to see your answer clear enough.

i definatly agree with rish. each of use, dj/producer, needs to determine which market God is calling. then stick to it, learn it. and sadly, you may have to write music or dj just for money, not for enjoyment or because thats the music you like. i got into this with the thread on oakey. he wrote bunkka to sell cds. not for djs or fans of djs. for sales. you may have to actually do that. right that prog trance track because that is what will sell, right that pop track that you have some famous lady singing for.
this also brings up the old arguement of what our role should be, should we create our own little "sub culture"? honestly, yes i think we should and ill tell you why. because NO ONE can go into the world and minister without having a homebase. shiloh is a great exaple just because of what he said a few minutes ago. he talked about TF being his home, being able to wear his heart on his sleeve. that is why we need it. because there MUST be a place where we can come back and be who we are. know what i mean? its like going to church. there MUST be a place to come back to and be refreshed, to be encouraged. because i can assure you you will not get it in the secular music industry.

heres teh heart i think
until we have christian djs and producers making money, selling records (in secular or Christian markets, but esspecially in secular markets) we will never be able to "get big" in either industry. it is as simple as that.the underground is called the underground for a reason. and i agree with reds about the church and christian music industry largly not even caring about dance music. ill tell you a little story. for new years i was going to organize a party at my youth group. i had 2 djs planning on coming, one for free. all we had to do was pay for his bus ticket. a party like that would be really cheap, through a raffle in or something and you have it. they canceled it saying the didnt have the money for it. this kind of shows you about how much churches in general care. shoot i was like 2 days away from starting to price out bus tickets.
there needs to be 2 seperate, but equally important, types of djs/producers. one to go out, like shiloh and AH, to minister, to show God. and then the other to welcome them back home when they need it. you cannot go out without a home to be back to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there should not be christians in a christian scene. I am saying that for the most part, that scene does not exist and the doors seem all but closed for one globally at this time. The door to the secular scene is however very open.

Ultimately, we collectively need to decide what our goals are. Is the goal simply to have fun? Is it to share the gospel? What is it for? Yes, a person on a personal level can have a different answer, but collectively, we need something to work toward and a plan to acheive that. We can't do that if we are constantly arguing as we are now about having fun, sharing or whatever. All may be valid, but we have NEVER come up with a cohesive goal and plan to acheive it. Rish's points are 100% valid and even mine only partly point to the answer. When are we going to sit down and decide what we are doing collectively.

or is that just it... we are not and we shouldn't? Are we to remain a house divided against itself?

EXACTLY!!! :-X  This is my point.  Well said Saryn! 8)

Andy's album may be economically successful because of licensing, but that could not happen if his music was not released...by the Christian label.  It's not just promoting him, it's giving him a support from which he can do greater things.  


Exactly - That's why I asked how much money Tasty made, not to bash it, but to try and put things in perspective.

Someone could look at Tasty from a business standpoint and say that it is not making money and it is not a success.  That wouldn't be true though, because (in my perception anyway) Tasty's goal is not to make money, but to minister.  Not to minister to the lost so much as to encourage, teach, inform, and to allow a place for discussions and synergy to take place for believers.

Someone could also say if it isn't targeted at reaching the lost it is a waste of time.  That's not true either, because what you are doing is empowering believers and equipping them to reach the lost.  It is making them better at what they do, and in turn they can reach people more effectively.  The fellowship that takes place here also motivates them to do the same.

The need for a Christian Scene is for the exact same reason! 

It may not look like it is successful economically, and people may think it is a waste of time since it isn't directly targeting the lost, but at the end of the day it's about making stronger believers and giving them a support base to go out and do what they need to do.

You're taking a verse that talks about preaching the gospel to the lost, and applying it to Christians not accepting the endeavours of other Christians....not the same thing.

You did hit on something with your comments though, about the church rejecting us, the radio rejecting us, the christian music industry rejecting us, the bookstores rejecting us, and so on....you do make it clear that the majority of people in this scene do not get support from the usual places most Christians get support.

If a kid at church feels called to me a worship leader, evangelist, or missionary in the traditional sense, they will recieve overwhelming support and encouragement from pastors, leaders, adults, peers, etc.

If a kid at church feels called to do some kind of ministry with electronic dance music, whether it is like Shiloh or it is like Club Worship, they more often than not recieve question after question and much confusion and explaining ensues, oftentimes with misunderstandings or rejection.

Even of they are lucky enough to have a church like mine (and some of yours) that understand and support the concept, oftentimes they still don't understand deeply or speak the same language or understand all the dynamics.

So where will they get their support and encouragment if a Christian Dance Scene doesn't exist? 

If there aren't a few artists making music that is focusing on encouraging them, or places like this for them to interact with people who understand and support them, where will they get their fellowship or ministry?

Where is their "home" as Saryn and Shiloh so eloquently put it?

That's what I'm driving at.  There is a need for a Christian Scene, as much as there is a need for people to work outside of it.

There is so many more points that were made, and questions that were asked that were good, but I'm focusing on clarifying what I meant by my initial posts.

real quick....

Carey, I know about the context thing on the scripture I quoted. The reason why I picked that one to counter is that I feel the one you picked did not apply as justification. I never said we shouldn't create a xian homebase, I question what that homebase should look like. I don't think it should look ANYTHING like the CCM fan base for example. The model I keep coming back to is what say Tooth and Nail has created; a  blend of secular and christians working together, but the very foundation is Christ. Yes, we need people in churches, we should have events in churches, but the goal should not be to create a duplicate scene seperate from the secular one.

As far as the questions go that I'm asking, those are the ones you, me, Rish, and the rest of TF NEED to collectively discuss and come to some agreement on. It will be essential to our "growth".

i diffinatly agree with both carey and reds. but i think im thinking abit bigger. carey says that from a stand point of equiping people to go out, we have been successful. i think i have to agree. i havnt read any posts talking about how one of our djs went out and had people saved. come to think of it, the only post i can remember about peopel being saved was that dude from korn. and we all know what happened to that. alot o yelling about how much importance it was. so from a ministry standpoint i have to say that we have been as successful as we have been business wise. unless you can prove me wrong. if so by all means, prove me wrong. ignorance is not something i like.

i also agree with reds that no one has ever had an idea of where we should go with this scene. i think
we should, but collectively do so. we all know what needs to be done. but how?

we need to reach lost. that means we need to bring up new producers that can sell to the secular world which will open up oppertunities to minister. then we need to raise up DJs that can play in the clubs and show light. ravers to go in a pray for the djs and the people(we must have support. a single DJ will be hard pressed to do it alone) that means some of make sure we start attending events where we have Christian DJs ministering.

then we need a home base. it may be a christian dance scene. in which case we need people like reds who are willing to fork out his own money for it. people like davo that have labels like demulcent. then we need people to support these things so they can be bigger and therefore enabling growth. well also need peple praying for the djs and teh producers.
if this is for ministry it is much more complicated then just one dj and one producer saying this is what we need to do and doing it.

BUT!!!...
BEFORE any of this can even be CONSIDERDED. we need to pray, ask for wisdom, ask for comfirmation that what you want to do is what God wants. that is the FIRST thing that must happen.

Hey Saryn

Check this out:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/cl/2004/001/5.39.html

Well, really, everything we need to do should come back to spreading the truth about Jesus. Whether we land an awesome tour, make a great album, get a remix from a top-dog DJ or a top-dog record label, it needs to be under the mentality of "How can this draw people toward Jesus?"

Otherwise we're pissing on a flagpole.

Perhaps the collective goal ought to be home groups in cities. See if people can agree on a church and a pastor to put themselves under, and start a home group under that pastor and his/her church. I'm not saying that tastyfresh.com itself should say "We are now (such-and-such) church/denomination". I'm saying that we should have regional/localized small groups that, for the sake of having spiritual authority, should put ourselves into submission of one pastor and be in agreement on that.

For example - theoretically speaking, I would get some of the DJ's/producers/promoters in the Columbus area together and see if they can agree upon starting a small group under my pastor, Rich Nathan, and Vineyard Columbus. I would go through leadership training and start that small group as a group that is directly affiliated with Vineyard Columbus, but our small group's goal woudl be reaching the lost through dance music, period. Then we would all be under a pastor, and we would also be somewhat submissive to the leaders of tastyfresh.com as well.

Then there could be lists of 'approved small groups' on the tastyfresh.com website, including info like the group's name, the groups leaders and (optional) members, the group's pastor and church, and where/when the group meets.

That would be the spiritial, home-base foundation behind it. Even if a small group was just one or two people, it would be a start. Then, a newcomer to tastyfresh who wants to get more involved could say, "Hey... I want to get involved." Then a tastyfresh member could say, "Why don't you check out this tastyfresh small group in your area? It's affilated with the (insert church here) church on the west side of town."

Each group could then have their set of goals for how to reach the lost. Organization is good. Motivation, specific goals, and direction is good.

Rish, most of what you said is good. Small, local groups are the way to build. That's what I've been (slowly) trying to get at over the past year or so (apparently in a VERY ineffective way). I do think that we need some "national" goals however. These should not countermand the local goals and I'm not talking about setting TF up as say the Pope.

This is what I had tried to do in atlanta last year with Doug. It didn't work out at the time due to well... time for the most part. Doug, Nullset, and I were basically the leaders of it although none of us actually said who was ultimatly "incharge" The parties we threw at my place were great. We were able to have the spiritual discussions we can't here (like I said... in person is just better). We also had time to share new music and to occasionally show off some skillz on the decks. Fun stuff.

So... yeah... small local house parties are the thing right now for us.

Well, I'm not talking about house parties. I'm talking about literally, weekly meetings to meet, worship, pray, work out things. Each individual group would decide on their focus. One group may do just that... throw house parties and minister that way. Another group may be a group of producers who just help each other write great songs and get into the industry. A group could also be so mish-mash that they couldn't have a specific goal. I mean, say D7, Prophetica and I started a group. We have a producer, web designer, and radio guy. Yeah, there's no one thing we could probably all do but we'd pray and seek God on it.

Just brainstorming. :) I think that'd be a great way to get the local stuff under control.

Nationally speaking.. that's a whole new ball game. I'll post more later.

read it, but that is one. as far as a real ministry goes, i would call it inneffective on a larger scale. not completely because a person was saved. but if we are saying ministry, then there should be more then a single person saved. especcially with as many peopel as we have here.

rish, personally i dont like that idea. in my mind it brings thoughts of a TF cult or something.
rish, you go to the columbus vineyard? i went there a few years back for a vineyard youth conferance. was awesome. matt redman was the worship leader. awesome.

Yep, Columbus Vineyard is my home. :)

We definitely don't want it to look like a cult. What part, specifically, didn't you like?

donno man.. i just generally got a bad vibe about it. im not saying small groups arent great, i definatly think they are. i have had some of the best prayer times and times of healing with just one other guy.
but i just got a bad vibe about it.... i dont even really know why... ill reread your post again and see if i can put my figer on it.

think i found it.
mostly the "approved" and leadership of TF. while there are leaders of TF,i guess it sounds like a church or something like that. like we have to approve of things before we can act. i definatly think small groups would be awesome, but on a very casual setting. more of a way to make our members better at producing, djing whatever. it would also have some studies and that stuff, but less.
im not really sure about it... i guess small groups would be good, but on a less formal basis and less accountablity.
personally, my accountablity goes to strong Christians in my church who i trust. if that happens in that group great, but to start a group and just expect people to be accountable to each other in that setting, with people that may be new.

The individuals who attend on a regular basis will naturally make up the leadership of these groups. The specifics would be up to each group, but this "small group" should NEVER take the place of church membership or guidance. I would think of it more as a multi-denominational faith-based group. Wordy, but that will describe it more accurately. I think there needs to be an aspect of music to these groups as well as some sort of prayer time and bible study... so even my "house party" suggestion doesn't totallly communicate what I mean :)

thats more like it reds. ill post more tommorow. i have some thoughts.

yeah, I don't think Rish was saying we should start our own churches. :)

I do think there is room for INCLUDING churches though.

Yeah. Again, I was just brainstorming. It should probably be more casual, for sure. I just think it would be an important way for people in relative closeness to try and build more of a foundation for community. It's great to be able to log in to tastyfresh and talk to people, but it's even better to do it in "real life". Setting up a time and place to have meetings where we pray, talk, and plan actual tangible ways to do outreach (and then DO them) is always good. It forces us to actually act on all those times we say to each other "Hey man, let's hang out sometime."

I also think that, if people really get serious about it, they should dedicate themselves to be under one church and pastor if they are going to form a small team like this. There's something very honorable about people being in submission to a pastor or church leadership as a team. The group's members may not need to be "members" of that church, but the leaders should. There's something honorable about a group of people being under submission to a pastor. Understand I'm not talking about people just getting together to hang out... I'm talking about people coming together to make a dedication to a cause on a local level.

Does that make sense? It's a common, common trend these days.

I also need to clarify that my suggestion isn't to replace church, but to augment church. Follow Vineyard's small group model. Their goal is not to replace church but to add to it. There's a big difference in how Sunday morning feels, and Thursday night small group feels. The leaders are always members and have had some leadership training, but group attenders aren't always group members. Sometimes they go to other churches... sometimes they don't even go to church at all.

That was one example, not the only person ever saved.  There are many more.   

Ask Kevin Coffman about some of the kids saved at his events, or some of the Christians who rededicated.

Ask AJ Mora, or Sheltershed.

I've seen 2-3 people come to the Lord while listening to my radio show, and have been able to share with many more.

Ask Doug Ross, Andy Hunter, Steve Jeffrey, Lee Jackson, and all the people who are in this for ministry and they do have stories to tell.  Look at NGM or 24-7 Prayer.

It's even counted as a success in my book when Andy Hunter is able to share with DJ Tiesto or Shiloh & Mint are able to share with the people they interact with in the scene even if they don't accept Jesus on the spot, the seed was still planted.

We don't save people, we just plant the seed and Jesus saves them if they turn to him.  In the case of this story, the guy didn't get saved at the rave, but the seed was planted there and the words wouldn't live his head until weeks/months later he accepted Jesus.  If not for the article we might not have even known.  Our job is to tell people about Jesus, love on them, pray with them, share with them, and as long as we are obedient than it is a success.

I'd probably agree that there aren't as many as you'd expect from a group of this size, but there are way more than one or two people, and I'm not sure that's the focus of everyone here.

I don't tend to look at it as a Tastyfresh thing anyway, so much as some of the believers who are actively sharing in the Christian Dance Scene and happen to hang out at Tasty once in a while, if even that.  I think Aj mora has posted on here twice in the entire time that Tasty has existed.

My comments about a "home" aren't just about the Tastyfresh boards as much as they are about the entire Christian Dance Scene.  We tend to think of Tasty as the whole scene, but really there are quite a few more people out there who don't interact with Tasty.  People in groups like the one Rish described.

We see new people show up here everday so we should realize that, but for some reason we don't.

At any rate I'm speaking of the entire Christian Dance Scene and not just Tasty.  If you look at that there really is ministry going on in parts of it and it does bear the amount of fruit it should.

That doesn't mean we can't improve, but it sure does mean we aren't a useless/fruitless ministry.

Totally agree.  I think the concern is that Tastyfresh isn't the vatican or the pope or something over everyone.

I think the small groups being committed to and under the authority of a church in their area is a superb idea though.

BTW, I do think TF should be the "hub" of these groups, but I think they should remain independent as far as leadership goes. Those who are local will know their scene better. TF should be the communication hub and "force that binds" for these groups. Does that make sense?

In a lot of ways, I'm thinking that it's time for DJ404's dream of groove fellowships to take off. (Need to get him here to talk about it.) I'd actually like to call them: Tastyfresh Groove Fellowships. That's just me talking though.

There are basically 3 parts to saving ppl (as far as what we can do)
1) Sow - Plant the seeds of the gospel
2) Cultivate - encourage people to explore the possibility that it really is true and trustworthy
3) Reap - Close the deal. This would also mean getting the person connected with some body of believers on a regular basis for further growth.

Bingo.

reds: that is essentially on the money. when rish talked about TF leadership, it kinda threw bells. TF being a hub saying "hey guys, we are going to be going to this club, or we are going to have an event here" is a really good idea. Using TF as a hub for information sharing is perfect. isnt that what the internet was created for?
carey: i definatly rejoice for that one dude, and i thank God for all the others. i also know that man people are saved or planted the seed at events by us and so forth, yet no one mentions them. the last one was the guy from korn and its sparked a debate on why we are putting so much emphisis on him. all im saying is that many seeds are being planted and many seeds are growing, and a few are sprouting but i have heard nothing of it. when you have a guy saved because of your show, post it. the Bible says we shoudl rejoice together. we cant do that unless people know! i want to hear abotu people being saved, i want to know that the work we are trying to do day by day is paying off. i say that it seems TF hasnt been effective as a ministry because we havnt heard these things. know what i mean??
(NOTE: not bashing anyone here for not posting or not even getting anyone to Christ. i myself have only talked about Christ to a few non Christians. i spend more of my time advising other Christians. thats how God made me. i would definatly love to spread teh Gospel more though.)
so in conclusion: lets rejoice for the saved!!

Saryn - No hard feelings man, I just get pretty passionate about this stuff.  We certianly aren't perfect yet and have lots of room for improvement, but the flip side is what we have done so far has had results and has not been futile.

I've posted about 2 of the people who listen to my radio show and accepted Jesus in the past, but haven't posted about the third as it happened around a time I just needed to take a break from Tasty for a bit.

This guy started listening to the show regularly a ways back and was clearly not a Christian, which is not surprising since a large percentage of my listeners aren't and it is not a Christian station.  He loves dance music, and aside from the internet or CDs my show is the only thing in this area that plays good electronic music.  There is one other show, but it is very underground, minimal, and experimental.

He kept listening and requesting stuff every week, and then I recently re-aired and AJ Mora interview I did around the time that "Soul of a DJ" came out a few years back, and AJ shared about his music and Jump and lots of fun stuff, and at the end he asked permission to speak his mind and I told him he could say anything he wanted so he hammered the Gospel!  We got a lot of huge response to it when it was live, so I figured we'd try again with a re-air.

This guy heard it and came down and wanted to check out AJ's Music and CDs and stuff because he really loved the interview.  I played a few tracks off soul of a DJ for him and he was loving it and jumping around and stuff.  He ended up sticking around and talking to me for awhile that night and gradually started coming down to visit week after week.

I knew he wasn't a Christian and tried to share with him now and again, and he really wasn't interested so I didn't push, but just shared when I could.

One time he came down and was upset because some guys from his fraternity had taken one of the brothers out for his birthday to Deja Vu (A local strip club) and he couldn't go because he had to work.  When he got home he found his wallet missing and was freaking out that they might be spending all his money there and he had no way to stop them but just had to wait for them to come back to town and see what was up.

I asked him to let me pray with him about it and he did, so we did and he ended up not losing any money which was a cool.  He was more open to sharing after that and we continued to just talk about life and movies and listen to music together with me sharing here and there when I could.  He disappeared for spring break and I didn't see him for a little while after that, but I ran into him at a store and he told me he had accepted Jesus as his savior and he was super pumped about serving God.  He had checked out my website and had bought a few faith massive albums, Cloud2Ground, and some other stuff and he still loves listening to the show, and he has also found the Electric Circus through the links on my site and listens to that on Saturday Nights as well (TRAITOR!! :) )  :laugh:

He's even been handing out Bible's on the college campus and has been active in a Bible Study that another guy on Campus is running. 

That's cool, that's the main issue.  I think we could all benefit by working together in a more concentrated effort, but without trying to dictate what others have to do.

An example of this might be like Fusion and Club Worship - Obviously two different ministries with two different target groups and callings but both groups of Christians working in the dance scene.

Club Worship is more focused on leading Christian kids and any unsaved who show up into Worshiping God through the vehicle of Electronic Music.  Their music tends to be very overt lyrically and very much Christ Focused and uplifting the name of Jesus in a Worship filled atmosphere target at believers uniting in Worship to God.

Fusion tends to be more of an outreach to kids in the Florida area and be a fun and safe dance party thrown by Christians, but not necessarily very overt, but more of regular tunes you might hear anywhere (clean ones) with Christian Tunes and stuff mixed in and big names like Stryke, Noel Sanger, and Jason Dunne brought in for shows.  I think they do hand out evangelical literature and stuff, but the main focus is having a good time and building relationships.

Since I have never been to either ministry, please forgive me if I have misrepresented either one in any way, but this is my understanding of them from reading about them in mags, and posts on the boards.

The danger I would see with Tasty being in leadership or authority over either one, or for either one to demand how the other ministry to function would be that they both perform different functions and are important ministries.  Different parts of the same body.  Not saying Tasty would do that, or that either ministry would, but that's the kind of uneasiness I have about it because we all play different roles and one size, or one method, does not fit all.

That aside I realize these two ministries are in different states, but if they were nearby each other I could see them working together as Fusion being the funnel to attract seekers and introduce them to Jesus, and Club Worship could be the place at the end of the funnel where they get planted and discipled and learn to Worship God in a medium they are comfortable with and begin to fellowship with other believers.

Both ministries could keep doing what they are doing, but compliment each other in that way.

We spend a lot of time saying "It should be this way!" instead of thinking how the differences might work together pretty well.

We don't have to stop what we are doing or change our mission or methods so much as we could learn how to step out of our comfort zones and start working together.  Like an underground artist could keep making underground music as their main focus, but maybe once every six months make a radio friendly track for The Electric Circus in their spare time or something.  Basically keep doing your ministry, but also make an effort to somehow augment another's even if they are targeting a different group than you.

I think we could have some really cool synergy and collabs if we started thinking outside of the box a little!

Interesting reading, yeah I agree with most points made.

I think the unity that we once had in the 90's has somehow slipped. There are of course plenty of reasons why this has happened but I think that we really need to pray for a greater unity and peace in our scene. We need to pray for motivation and direction and networking also. Being a producer from the UK I used to speak to a few like minded producers and dj's here but I aslo used to speak with producers and dj's in the US who I loved to network and chat with as it offered me great feedback on tunes and enthusiasm.

Paul (ikon)

Well, that's exactly what I want to try to avoid. Ultimately, these "groove fellowships" are going to have to react to local conditions. What TF says won't ness. be what is needed there or even effective. The strenght in basing these groups out from TF is that they will have a place they can:

1) Find common base instructions on how to START (not maintain, group, act, etc...) a local community.
2) A place to share and discuss their struggles and successes in forming that community.
3) A place they can send people to (like churches) who may need to more information about these fellowships and the dance scene in general.
4) They will build off the reputation of TF and make the groups seem more "legit"
5) Allow us as a "scene" to start as many communities as possible within a short period of time.
6) I could go on.

Building things with TF as a central information sharing and community/support hub, not a controlling point just makes sense. Local churches and the group leadership should decide HOW they will minister to the community.


You're right, we should not ness. say it should be our way or the highway. The only time I would change that position is if we know the groups are NOT living up to God's call as christians... even then, their local church support needs to do that not TF.

Beyond that, yes... we need to think outside of the box right now. Unfortunatly, either the box is so big that we are lost in it trying to figure out what to do or it is so small that we can't help but be outside of it and wandering around looking for the box. ;)

BTW, my box model is this: when you step out of the box to think, you have simply stepped into a bigger one b/c you only have new limits and constraints on your thinking. Nobody truly has an open mind. :)

We should become that body Paul was talking about. Right now though, most of us are simply stem cells.

FULLY agree.

im starting to agree with the way it looks.
1: use TF as a hub. this doesnt mean that TF controls how each grou ministers. each group needs to determine that at a local lvl. what works in UK wont work here etc.
2: definatly need the support of local churchs. i know vineyards are generally great about that. they need to be there to take over after people accept Christ or decide they want to know more.
3: ...i cant think of anything else now... brain is fried. post more later...
PS. i may be mistaken, but it seems as if we are trying to figure out the future role of TF. anyone agree?

That's exactly it Saryn. That's exactly it. TF is not supposed to be a simple social club or a simple hub of information. It is to be a network of believers that helps to encourage and guide. Right now, it's not really doing either.

I think we've all agreed that having tastyfresh.com be in any sort of leadership role is not going to work. I think some people have taken what was a brainstorm to me, and have suddenly made it out as if I think it's God's will. That's not the case. What I do think is that small groups in a localized sense could really help to get some things moving, and I do think that a group like this needs to be in submission to a pastor and a church. That is God's desire for this type of thing... otherwise we leave ourselves open to rebellion. These groups just need to be in submission to the type of pastor who isn't caught up in legalistic bullcrap and will be open to actually hearing the voice of God, not the voice of doctrine and 45 year old paranoid mommies.

As far as tastyfresh's role, in my little idea, it should be a place for these "small groups" to network. But then we could move away from bickering about stuff and take that to our small groups, where we really CAN discuss things and hash out differences to find unity in Christ.

On a completely side note, something in this quote really got under my skin.


I just don't understand where that came from. The Electric Circus IS for underground artists, as much as it is for commercial artists. I enjoy playing Andy Hunter and Avalon Remixes just as much as I enjoy playing music from many of the underground artists right here on tastyfresh. The mentality behind the show is to do both. I do not want or need radio edits for The Electric Circus, because I mix it, like a real mix DJ, I need long tracks. The only time I personally want a radio edit is when it's a song like "Lifelight" by Andy Hunter, with a very clear cut verse and chorus with vocals, that can be played on a top-40 style format.

I didn't mean to jump down your throaght on that post Carey, but I do need to make sure everyone here understands what I am trying to do with my radio show. I think what you were trying to say with that part of your post was very important.

The goal of Electric Circus is to combine the commercial with the underground, but I don't need or want radio edits for it. I just want people to write the music they are comfortable with and send it to me to play. The way people could augment their ministries is to branch out and write a song that is:

 - 3 min 30 sec long
 - written so that a vocalist can sing verses and choruses with a top-40 sound to it

That's how people can augment their ministries as far as writing music goes. I wouldn't play it on The Electric Circus (unless they did a longer club remix). What I would do is, if the song was good, play it on RadioU full time, during regular rotation (which is going to get you more spins than The Electric Circus and generate more awareness, WHICH IS WHY I HARP ON IT ALL OF THE TIME!)

Fair warning... I'm starting a new forum sometime today and I will spilt this discussion off (leaving the AH voting issue here) and move it to the new board.

Let's seriously get this going. We need some Groove Fellowships.

 :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

And what saryn added in his post is right on target too. It sounds like we're coming close to figuring something great out. :)

I sure hope so. I sure hope... so.

Not at all, these are reservations I have based on the way things have been handled in the past on Tasty (Which we don't need to get into) and have nothing to do with what you said.  You have a great idea, and I support it.  I'm not saying it's God's will, and I'm not saying it's bad either.  I just threw out some thoughts about it, or basically was brainstorming back.

In regards to the Electric Circus only playing commercial music, I never meant for what I posted to seem that way, but I was rushing to write the post at 2am and it came out wrong.  I meant to say Radio U instead of Electric Circus, and basically meant it the way you explained it.

Sorry I said it wrong and got under your skin, but I think now that you have cleared up any misconceptions I might have caused about your show by my mis-wording it should all be fixed.

Believe me, no hard feelings. Text can be a neccessary evil sometimes. :)

A lot of the concepts from these groups came as part of a discussion between Carey, Rish, Saryn and myself over the past week. Below is a portion of the posts regarding these fellowships. These have been moved from the Help Andy Hunter! (http://www.tastyfresh.com/forum/index.php/topic,902.0.html) thread and merged here.

wow...that was a lot of reading.  great points by all, and very interesting. 

but, could all of this have been caused by the fact that dance music as a whole, christian or not, is just not what it used to be?  it peaked in the 90's, and so did TF.  but now, at least in my opinion, dance music is dying...or just really, really, really, underground.  could it be that the dance music era has already past and we're just trying to revive it for the sake of saving what we personally enjoy?  i know it will never truly be dead. no genre of music is dead. there are always groups of people who enjoy different things, but it may be like trying to revive disco...it's not gonna happen in the near future.

i dunno...thats just the way i feel about it. 

The idea of a "Rave" is, but as long as there are video games, I suspect there will be dance music and fans. The clubs also didn't die after disco and they existed long befor it was even created. It's hard to think that dance music would ever die since people have been dancing since time began.

Hey all, I've been reading what you've all been writing. I've got a few thoughts.

I agree with praying, there's no point in striving to do anything that God's not a part of, that being said I'm all about having fun in my freedom to do whatever edifies in Christ. I'm thinking of starting a music thing in Detroit. I've started a few "band" ish weekly music forums that basically helped some of us develop in skill or songwriting or prepared some for bands.. but I think it would be cool to get together for drum cricles, or spinoffs, or just sharing our songs with one another (like we do in the producing forums but more personal feel).

Anyway, the place I see this all going is not restarting a Rave culture under Christ, but simply more people, especially Worshipers, getting together in the Unity of the Spirit and the Bond of peace. God's kids playing.

Cheers.
More about my thoughts on weekly get togethers once I quit my job. ;)

awesome...

=)



wordup, that's dope

whoa, this thread is worthy of a book.

To edify: don't forget your vision, whatever the L-rd has planted in you.

Mine resembles the infamous scene in the Matrix II, but the manifestation, the actualization of the Ruach moving and preparing for victory (reminder: I like poetry).

Shalom

I value all of your comments but Dave's comments about the "church" not supporting Xian Dance is absolutley valid. I'd liken it to early believers venturing beyond Israel into Gentile territory to spread the Gospel. Let the church be the church and pray for new churches to spring up that acommodate our goals and vision. I've had this on my heart for a while now, to start a church explicitly for the disaffected dance scene. I'm praying and please pray with me that this is God's will and not just my bright idea. We'll see fruit if it is of God and failure and frustration if not. I believe God is sending us out to the clubs and events to sow seeds of faith. It's incredible to me that I can sit with someone and talk about God with flashing lights, pounding beats and swirls of fog and cigarrette smoke all around us.
God is there whether we are or not and I'd rather be in God's purpose and design that away from it.
Have I been a "perfect" witness??? Hell no but I think people know who I am and what I'm about.
Better to mess up trying to serve God than to perfect the art of armchair evangelism and merely tithe to the church, show up on Sunday and let that be the extent of it.

I'm with Dave(Redsavior), Let's get out there!

Du Nord :smiley34:

I believe God is sending us out to the clubs and events to sow seeds of faith. It's incredible to me that I can sit with someone and talk about God with flashing lights, pounding beats and swirls of fog and cigarrette smoke all around us.God is there whether we are or not and I'd rather be in God's purpose and design that away from it.  I'm with Dave(Redsavior), Let's get out there!

Du Nord :smiley34:

Weird thing you mention this. I went out to a massive this weekend after not going to a party in over a year. Not so great of an experience. Maybe its because I've changed, maybe its because the scene in SoCal has changed but I couldn't help but to be very uncomfortable. The crowd was very young for the most part and I cant help remember how "impressionable" I was at that age so it hurt to see so many kids sprawled out on the floor rolling hard. I just kept thinking "like a thief in the night". I remember how great it felt to be lost and led by the drugs and music. Yet so many of these kids have no idea the path they are choosing. So during the party I felt the Lord put something on my heart that I'd like to try in the respect of "planting seeds". I thought it would be cool to go through rooms passing out water with scripture verses imprinted on a sticker or what not. If nothing else it will get the word to a crowd. And maybe even help prevent some overindulged kid from dehydrating. Has anyone else tried anything like this at a party?


Lou

no but then again i havent been 2 a club in over 5 yrs (especially now that im a christian) but i have 2 admit that that is a good idea now when it comes 2 the scripture part w/ it bein on a sticker, do u create em urself or whats the deal on that?

Dude.. that is exactly what Jesus would do..That's a great idea, passing out water bottles with tracks or scripture glued to them instead of labels. Dunno how your going to get them in but that idea is right on track.

Actually, that's exactly what Jorge of Antidote did for a while. It worked fairly well, but it ate him up inside because of what he say going on there.

My suggestion is don't just pass them out. Talk to them about it later that night. "Hey, did you read what the bottle said? You got any questions? Are you happy? Really? Are you still pissed off at your dad? Can I have your phone number and call you in a couple of days?"

Oh, but if you are a guy, don't do this with girls, and if you're a girl, don't do this with guys. I have seen a marriage end becasue of this, and I've also seen be too much of a temptation. Descipleship should be done in twos. Don't go alone. Girls ministering to girls, boys ministering to boys. I can't tell you how many times some hot underdressed candy kid has licked me, or wanted to massage me.

We used to just get backstage (It's not hard) and minister to DJs and get into the VIP room and steal their water. Well, not steal, just take a bunch of it and hand it out. We'd always carry one that we filled up with water from the bathroom in case someone couldn't stand up and walk themselves.

Just so you know, the VIP room is usually much more intense and yucky than what's going on outside.

Research how to talk people down from a bad candy flip. Find out how to help someone recover from a "K-Hole". Be able to watch for signs that someone is about to wig out. Be prepared to get puked on and peed on. Wake people up that are sleeping and know where the emergency team or tent or area is in case they don't quite wake up.

Just because you have never done x or acid or green or whatever doesn't mean that you can't help. It's never about the drug, it's always about relationships.

And if they start to tell you that they hate God or he's not real, find out who hurt them. Someone in their life damaged their view. Be prepared to be real. Don't pretent to know the answer, but make sure that you contact them in a couple days with it.

If they are rolling (ecstacy), then they will be coming down pretty hard in two or three days, and will need some support. Most people don't get this much needed support from who they thought really cared about them, and feel very alone...a lot of it is because they have depleted their seratonin.

Oh, and don't take drugs. And bring your own lollypops. And don't drink water from someone elses bottle. You could get very very sick.

jorge

Oh, if you see a dealer, bust them. Tell the cops, then watch from a safe distance. They don't work alone...most of them don't, so just don't tell anyone what you did, and don't let anyone see you talking to the cop and pointing.

jorge

Good advice man.. talk about the scriptures when you can, minister to DJ's when you can, minister to people coming down from highs, bust the dealers. :) I second all of this advice.

you forgot the #1 thing though: Don't get killed by the drug dealer's friends.

You know, we used to get in free to a bunch of the parties. We would talk with the promoters and tell them what we were about. That we wanted to make sure people were OK and safe. The promoters like that. Safe party means future parties.

Were are you anyway, who's having parties anymore?

jorge

I just read through this whole thread twice.  And before that I dug through the Tastyfresh site top to bottom... and these are my thoughts:

1. Tastyfresh is not the church, it is not the dance culture, it is really a bridge between.

Reds, Im praying about how much time I might have to be involved here... and would like to have a little chat with you before the next update of this site if thats possible.

one thing that I think is important is that we look at this not as a "national" industry or ministry, but "international".  I do think that the USA has been blessed with some of the best resources to reach the entire world for Christ, and with that, perhaps comes a responsibility to the world and to Christ, to do what we can.

also out of curiosity, is there any proper worldwide directory, or straight-forward networking resource, for Christians who are DJs or active in dance music?

with the popularity of artist sites and how easy it is to put your face, music, bio/info and a contact link on the internet now, there's no reason why we shouldn't be connected and in unity worldwide.

The goal is to have these groups whereever Christian who like dance music live. I don't care if that is america, europe, Canada, the US, asia, antartica, ect.

Some of this is in the works. There will be an artist and label directory (more of a who's who with web links) as well as maybe a DJ one in the new TF site. It WILL take time to build though. The groove fellowship site which I will start after TF is done will have some additional information such as local groups.

SUGGESTED TASTYFRESH VISION:

to know JESUS and make HIM known........

Groove Fellowships -
to know JESUS by studying HIS word, the BIBLE
expressing our love back to GOD through dj/dance-led worship

Outreach into mainstream clubs -
make HIM known by HIS love in us from learning and drawing close to HIM through the Groove Fellowships then taking the message to the unbeliever/seeker.

It's not about the industry it's about people needing JESUS' grace, not man's dead religious works

just some thoughts, the same thoughts I had back in ancient TF days.

just a little older now that's all

ps

nice link:
http://www.tastyfresh.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,97/topic,1022.0

Why don't you place a donation button on the site to give ya'all a little revenue?  You could be classified as a non-profit organization, whose purpose is to encourage, discipline and equip the saints for the purpose of ministry in the Christian dance subculture.  Then, you could use the funds for the upkeep of the website, promotional materials, and even events you may want to host, or have other people host.  At the end of each year, submit an expense report for those who are interested.  Our church shows us money in and out each year, just so we know what our efforts are going toward. 

You could even have a promotional, like a compilation CD for each donation over $10-$20.  Not only would it help boost revenues, but it would give those who are interested in helping this grow a "taste" of the scene they are involved in.  And it would probably increase sales for the artists.  I don't know if this would be too much effort for you, but it could make all the work you do a little more worthwhile!   :)  ~charis

I might be a little naive and I haven't read every single post in this thread so I apologize if I'm repeating something someone already said. I come at this as someone who's never really been involved in the secular dance music scene and as a seminarian who's getting ready to be a full-time pastor. I personally have no intention of wasting any more time trying to make it in the secular music world. I did that whole kiss-up game as an indie rocker and God slammed that door closed in my face.

I think there are a whole lot of Christian youth and people in their 20's out there who would dance to Christian electronic music if they heard it but they're completely uninterested in secular dance music because they think that dance clubs are for people who do ecstasy and engage in promiscuous sex. Before I got married, I was really frustrated by how limited my options were if I wanted to do weekend evening activities as a Christian single. I think there a lot of Christian twentysomethings who currently go bowling, go to coffeehouses, or go get ice cream who would go out dancing if there were dance clubs where not everybody was drunk and the music wasn't all about booties and bling. When I'm a pastor, I'm hoping that my church will be open to having a Friday-night ministry in which the word is preached through dance music.

As far as youth go, I think a lot of parents would say thank you if their kids were going to lock-ins that featured Christian dance music instead of finding all kinds of trouble to get into. I'm hoping I'm not going to get burned too badly when I actually pitch this idea to a congregation but I figure throwing dance parties to get kids saved should be part of what the money in the offering plate goes to.

The secular music industry in general is in trouble. I can't imagine trying to be a label and make any money from CD sales in this world where everybody downloads and Myspace is saturated with teenage bedroom producers trying to make it big. I feel like in the future gigs themselves will be the only real source of revenue. But this is where I think Christian artists have a tremendous advantage over secular artists. If I'm a youth pastor one day and can draw my own budget, I would spend a fair amount of it on dance parties which would mean essentially keeping the Christian producers fed so they can make more Jesus trance songs.

So I guess my approach is to say the church is my venue.

God's Peace, Mr. G

good comments Mister G!

I wanted to let everyone know that I read most of the posts on this thread and what all of you are saying about the change that needs to be made in the Christian dance scene is something I've been working over and over and over in my head for the last 4 years at least, so, on that note, if you have read my thread on the Events & Groove Collectives section about my event "RADIATE" this June 28th, my goal is not to start a thriving Christian only dance scene, I'm not even really focusing on Christian youth either, I'm focusing on reaching out to youth that don't know Christ or at least don't know much.  I've been active in the Secular dance culture since '99 and experienced the whole bit with drugs like Ecstasy and so on, I've experience the really dark, really ungodly areas of these events as well, I've witnessed public nudity, drug use, sexual experimentations with the use of Ecstasy and I've seen what drugs have done to two of my closest friends who went on ecstasy and cocaine binges for nearly 6 months, they got to the point of sitting on the couch next to each other watching TV and both of them would start crying and I don't mean just a couple tears, I'm talking Sobbing their eyes out for no reason at all. They finally got away from those drugs, but not without irreversible damage to their brains or bodies.  I was deep into the underground dance culture and experienced the dark parts of the Rave Culture, so, with that experience I've come along way in my life to realize that their is two sides to every coin, the opposite side of the coin for our dance culture is not necessarily Christian only, it's part of a broader picture, it is our duty to reach out to the unsaved many who walk our streets completely lost in their life not knowing which direction to turn.  My goal for my label CHILLFACTOR PRODUCTIONS ENTERTAINMENT GROUP™ and the sub-labels associated like my Christian dance promo label Divine Light Entertainment™, is to take it in a direction that straddles that line between Christian and Secular, but, when throwing secular events we will have our Christian beliefs and morals instilled in everything we do and say at our events and they will be produced just as we would our Christian events, only instead of Worship as the mainstay of our events like in our Christian ones, we will concentrate more on the visuals, lighting and music content such as lyrics and so on, they will be done in such a way that they will retain our moral and religious beliefs but in a more subtle but obvious way if you are paying attention, it is our goal that at each of our secular events we will grab the attention of at least a handful of people who see what we are about just simply by paying attention to our music content and the visuals.  Being a Christian isn't always about being obvious or outspoken about your beliefs it's more about showing it outward in everything you say or do.  CHILLFACTOR PRODUCTIONS ENTERTAINMENT GROUP™, is going to do whatever it takes to make our Christian dance culture more relevant and viable in the Dance music industry, at least in the Kansas City Metro area, hopefully this strategy will spread like wildfire to other cities and states in all directions but I guess we'll see, BUT, I hope in the mean time all of you will find time and even a little cash to come to KC and check out our ministry/reachout, also, we are in the process of getting together a KC based Groove Fellowship as well, oh yeah, I guess I need to inform Chris huh?  LOL! Anyway, lets light a fire under this culture/sub-culture or whatever it is and make something happen because like other people on here I'm not just going to sit back and let our music die, I'm going to make it grow and spread the word of our Lord in the process.